Dollhouse

[Shryke]

[quote name='grozeng' post='1713741' date='Mar 9 2009, 14.01']I really should just stop this, but How do they have proof that they have the best hostage negotiator in the world?[/quote]

They make every other kind of perfect person imaginable. Why WOULDN'T they be able to make the perfect negotiator?

[grozeng]

[quote name='PhelanArcetus' post='1713783' date='Mar 9 2009, 14.21']There's another two features they provide.

1. Privacy. Nobody but the client and the Dollhouse knows that this is an Active with an imprint rather than a real person. More importantly, the Active will not remember after the engagement, and the Dollhouse is obviously making the privacy of their clients a big deal.[/quote]

Is that true? I thought that the client knew it was an imprinted individual, but Shryke said it wasn't so I figured I just did not watch closely enough (since I originally thought Echo was only imprinted with the negotiator that killed herself it is totally possible I missed something).

[Xanrn]

Well I am sure they asked the Best Negotiaters to scan their minds as part of some experiment or maybe just kidnapped them for a day.

The Midwife thing at the start would have made more sense if the Guy had been a drug baron/escaped convict/wanted man/fruit loop paranoid conspiracy/religious fruit loop. Who didn't want to use a licensed professional because they worked for "the Man", etc.

[PhelanArcetus]

To be fair on the midwife thing, we have, to my knowledge, no idea who he is. He's a guy whose wife (presumably) is having a baby and is doing so in a remote mountain lodge for no apparent reason. And is rich enough to afford to have the Dollhouse provide an Active as a midwife.

I mean he could be a rich idiot who went on a big skiing trip with his wife while she was 9 months pregnant and then when she went into labor he panicked and called the Dollhouse, where he gets weekend flings, and asked for a midwife to be sent up via Lear jet?

[potsherds]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1713216' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.47']Oh, I absolutely think it's mostly the writers not realising how the character comes across. But on the other hand, I just came across the [url="http://tvoholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/dollhouse-s01e01-echo-original-pilot.pdf"]original pilot script[/url] (don't know if it's been linked to here before) and I really think that's much better than anything the show has offered up so far. Not Ballard's role, maybe, but the rest of it. Why do network executives so often think they can write better than the actual writers they hire?[/quote]
Wow. That would've been an awesome ep. And a way better intro, imo.

[Jon AS]

The original pilot script actually offers up another possible explanation for the midwife job: in it, Amy Acker's character explains that they sometimes send actives on "altruistic" missions (and we even see Echo on one of these: counseling a girl who is in the hospital after a suicide attempt) because it increases their wellbeing/performance for some reason.

[Dirk Llama]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1713923' date='Mar 9 2009, 15.33']The original pilot script actually offers up another possible explanation for the midwife job: in it, Amy Acker's character explains that they sometimes send actives on "altruistic" missions (and we even see Echo on one of these: counseling a girl who is in the hospital after a suicide attempt) because it increases their wellbeing/performance for some reason.[/quote]

That's interesting, actually. I really want to take a look at the original script now. Joss claims he was on board with ditching the original pilot, but I doubt that's really the case, because what else would he say? 'Yeah, the network is fucking with my shit, but hey, still watch.' I wonder how much of my own ambivalence toward the show is a result of, you know, the dude's vision being compromised.

[Morrigan]

Count me in among those who prefer the first draft script. Fox screws up again? What a surprise.

[SpaceChampion]

[quote name='Xanrn' post='1713830' date='Mar 9 2009, 14.43']The Midwife thing at the start would have made more sense if the Guy had been a drug baron/escaped convict/wanted man/fruit loop paranoid conspiracy/religious fruit loop. Who didn't want to use a licensed professional because they worked for "the Man", etc.[/quote]

Or the pair of them were ponzi scheme perpetrators hiding from the law.

[Brude]

[quote name='kungtotte' post='1713228' date='Mar 9 2009, 07.16']DeWitt's offices are clearly above-ground, as every shot features the view from her windows, but when in the "factory"-part of the Dollhouse there are no external views and I can't remember ever seeing any windows in there. Also in at least one episode we see Echo being led into what is clearly the basement/parking structure beneath the building, and into an elevator.

Is it really that unthinkable that the secret part of the Dollhouse is in the basement levels of this building, accessible only by those with clearance (i.e the elevator won't go down there unless you've got the keycard or whatever)[/quote]
It seems to me the dollhouse is in the basement or some other extremely secure part of the building, while the "face people," (i.e. Olivia Williams' character, mainly) is in a nice suite of offices somewhere else in the same building. They are clearly in the same place because Topher and Sierra are going between both parts of their offices very quickly.

(Are people really worked up about all that? It's pretty simple to discern.)

[quote name='Annelise' post='1713390' date='Mar 9 2009, 10.33']Didn't want to be near a medical facility, just in case things took a turn? I mean, Echo's imprint might have been capable of surgery, but the situation was hardly equipt to handle it. Just odd, given they went to the trouble and expense of hiring a doll.[/quote]
Some people have a pathological fear and/or hatred of anything related to the establishment medical practices. My best friend is a paramedic and his own wife's brother literally hates him because of these kinds of beliefs - he thinks he's "part of the conspiracy," no joke. (There's also a lot of anti-Semitic 'evil' Jewish doctor bullshit thrown in there to boot, but that's a whole other thing.) Anyway, despite having the money for and access to very good, mainstream health care if they want it, my friend's brother-in-law and wife has so far had all their kids via home birth with a midwife. And being so fearful of anything mainstream, their midwife was NOT been the kind trained at places like NYU or similar institutions.

Some people (even very rich people) aren't filled up with all that bull shit, but for whatever reason want to do the natural birth thing. It's VERY common these days and it's even been a kind of fad with a lot of Hollywood types and such. You should see the short film "Thigh-line Leer Triangular" for an idea of what a real, totally unattended natural child birth can be like. (It's a famous avant-garde film where the filmmaker filmed his own child being born in his and his wife's home bath tub.)

[quote name='Xanrn' post='1713830' date='Mar 9 2009, 14.43']The Midwife thing at the start would have made more sense if the Guy had been a drug baron/escaped convict/wanted man/fruit loop paranoid conspiracy/religious fruit loop. Who didn't want to use a licensed professional because they worked for "the Man", etc.[/quote]
See above. Also, we don't know who he was, we don't have any backstory and simply don't need it. It's REALLY unimportant to the story. I guess Joss just figured most people out there knew that births with mid-wives had become extremely common and popular these days, but clearly not everybody does.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Brude' post='1714205' date='Mar 9 2009, 17.45']See above. Also, we don't know who he was, we don't have any backstory and simply don't need it. It's REALLY unimportant to the story. I guess Joss just figured most people out there knew that births with mid-wives had become extremely common and popular these days, but clearly not everybody does.[/quote]

I think the problem still stems mainly from problems with the overall premise of the show. It stretches credulity enough to believe that even the truly wealthy would ridiculously overpay for a custom escort or servant. Especially when you consider that they're (mostly) respectable and privileged people risking it all dealing with a human slavery ring. How many of the 'elites' are really gonna get entangled with that no matter how well connected they believe Dollhouse to be? (hell, were I a super-elite, Dollhouse's influence and connections would make me even more concerned.)

Its difficult enough to accept this for rare and highly technical skills or professions, the premise seems to collapse when it comes to something seemingly as mundane and common (even if its not, it seems that way) as midwifing. Its something we'll naturally have to get over if we intend to continue watching the show, but the 'Why would you pay that much for THAT?' questions will continue to arise for every use that doesn't seem exceptional and out of the ordinary. I myself had no problem with the midwifing bit. It was a 30 second scene and I just chose not to dwell on it. But I can definitely see where others might.

[Warg Arry]

Ah this really sucks! Even with the mixed type reviews given.. I still want to see it. And it seems that Dollhouse won't be here until 2010, near the end of the year and we'll have to actually purchase cable to see it. because even though a free to air channel was intending to take on the show. It's now passed on it. despite (apparently) advertising their intentions to air Dollhouse.

gggrrrrrr :tantrum: Yeah because shows like big brother, biggest loser and so you think you can dance are sooo freakin awesome they couldn't give up one night of multiple airings of "reality" TV, to even think about showing Dollhouse.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Since when is the wiping process super traumatic? And since when does the dollhouse do anything to ease the supposed trauma? I mean, seriously. Because when Geek Boy was spazzing out during the latest ep and started babbling about that stuff, my reaction was bafflement.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Max']Since when is the wiping process super traumatic? And since when does the dollhouse do anything to ease the supposed trauma? I mean, seriously. Because when Geek Boy was spazzing out during the latest ep and started babbling about that stuff, my reaction was bafflement.[/quote]

Huh? The Dollhouse has had this relaxed "spa-like" atmosphere since the beginning, and this line by Topher gives one of the reasons for it. Contrast that with people yelling at Echo (and even hitting her) after the wipe in the vault. Topher evidently underestimated Echo's ability to deal with "the real world" in her wiped state, but the Dollhouse underestimating (or being plain ignorant about) their actives' capabilities lies at the core of the show.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Right, it's spa-like. It's just...they wake up, and they ask if they can go, and they wander off unaccompanied. Which, I dunno, doesn't seem a lot like 'helping cope with trauma' to me.

Why the fuck am I awake?

[Shryke]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1713216' date='Mar 9 2009, 06.47']Oh, I absolutely think it's mostly the writers not realising how the character comes across. But on the other hand, I just came across the [url="http://tvoholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/dollhouse-s01e01-echo-original-pilot.pdf"]original pilot script[/url] (don't know if it's been linked to here before) and I really think that's much better than anything the show has offerehttp://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?act=Post&CODE=02&f=17&t=34403&qpid=1713216d up so far. Not Ballard's role, maybe, but the rest of it. Why do network executives so often think they can write better than the actual writers they hire?[/quote]

Interesting. Alot of what's in that episode has just been spread out over the last 4 anyway. I think I like the way they've done it for real though. It's more gradual, and we get more of a sense of what a Doll DOES. There were a few points in that script that felt far too info-dumpy for my taste. Like they were trying to throw all their cards on the table right at the start of the game.

Also, the Ballard/Echo interaction seemed like a generally bad idea in that script. Seems way too sloppy. The one we see in episode 3 does a much better job of making the trail look dead and cold and non-existent.

And the "Actives do better when being nice" thing seemed kinda dumb.

There's also hints at future plot points and possibilities in there too. We'll see if they actually still use any of those.

[quote]Right, it's spa-like. It's just...they wake up, and they ask if they can go, and they wander off unaccompanied. Which, I dunno, doesn't seem a lot like 'helping cope with trauma' to me.[/quote]

In the Dollhouse, they deliberately create a soothing, calm atmosphere to keep that trauma from happening. Even Topher talks to them nicely and sweetly.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Shryke']And the "Actives do better when being nice" thing seemed kinda dumb.[/quote]

Why? It goes hand in hand with the general idea that they can't wipe away everything, despite the claims to the contrary.

[grozeng]

[quote name='Max the Mostly Mediocre' post='1714597' date='Mar 10 2009, 05.43']Right, it's spa-like. It's just...they wake up, and they ask if they can go, and they wander off unaccompanied. Which, I dunno, doesn't seem a lot like 'helping cope with trauma' to me.

Why the fuck am I awake?[/quote]

Isn't the handler in the room? The actives are imprinted with a memory of the Handler, so seeing the handler may make it less traumatic. They probably have a memory of Topher too. So they wake up and see one or 2 familiar things and it makes it easier.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Max the Mostly Mediocre' post='1714496' date='Mar 10 2009, 01.39']Since when is the wiping process super traumatic? And since when does the dollhouse do anything to ease the supposed trauma? I mean, seriously. Because when Geek Boy was spazzing out during the latest ep and started babbling about that stuff, my reaction was bafflement.[/quote]

I just don't get this. It's not like they just made it up for the last episode - the show just started airing and they're still working with original material. It's just something they haven't made explicit yet, like a thousand other things that they'll slowly leak out as the season progresses about the mechanics of the Dollhouse.

Makes perfect sense though - the dolls are wiped, losing a lot of their accumulated experiences, and are therefore extra-sensitive to external stimuli, like babies. At the Dollhouse, they're brought back with the few familiar elements of their lives there - Topher, their handler - and are led out into the serene, utterly low-impact environment of the Dollhouse. Not a whole lot of things to process there. I'm no cognitive science expert, but from what I do know from the couple classes I had, all this makes perfect sense.

I never watched Buffy, but given River's character on Serenity and now the Dollhouse, I think we can safely assume that Joss has a thing for cog sci, and you should have a little more faith in his concepts, IMO.

[PhelanArcetus]

They clearly have a "just-wiped" script.

Active: Did I fall asleep?
Topher: For a little while.
Active: Shall I go now?
Topher: If you like.

Then they're set loose in a generally carefree spa environment, where the supposedly blank (but actually imprinted with a generally docile and trusting child personality, some dedication to keeping fit, and knowledge of their handler, Topher, and the doctor, at least), to do whatever until they're needed.

The imprint on the handler is more designed to make sure that regardless of what imprint they have at the moment, they'll identify and trust their handler, allowing the Dollhouse the ability to recover an active without the active objecting. Similarly the "are you ready for your treatment?" trigger.

If they were actually totally wiped, I'd expect them to lie there like vegetables, and possibly blankly follow any directions they were given. The tabula rasa just makes them quiet, safe, easily controlled, and gives a few minor compulsions on top of the more important triggers.

But without the script, the wiped active doesn't center him/herself. You say "Did I fall asleep?" and instead of seeing a big-nosed nerdy guy smile at you, you see a couple of men freaking out. And then are not put in the quiet safe pleasant place. The spa environment is designed to facilitate the actives staying in good shape and to isolate them from any non-controlled encounters. The script helps, but it's more the environment intended to keep the childlike tabula rasa personalities from anything but simple and friendly situations.