Too fat for fashion?

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1691315' date='Feb 18 2009, 13.45']Seastarr,

That's the catch, the designers want people to be "radical" as they define "radical" which rather misses the point of being "radical."[/quote]

If "Radical" can't be defined with general agreement on its meaning though, it can't have any meaning at all.

It's like having a universally accepted symbol for anarchy. Yes, it does seem contradictory, but if the symbol for anarchy were TRULY anarchical, you'd not be able to distinguish it for the sign for an occupied toilet.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Bronn,

So French wine is superior to California wine because the best pallets in the business agree it is, dispite blind taste tests to the contary? This is analogus in that you are saying these high powered fashion designers get to define what is "radical" in their profession. In the same vein why can't high powered wine connoisseurs define French wine as superior to California wine regardless of taste tests? Both are subjective standards.

In other words I get what you are saying it just seems disengenuous to claim being "radical" means doing things like everyone else.

[Annelise]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1691176' date='Feb 18 2009, 14.28']I've lost 30pounds, but have another 50 pounds to go.
I'm determined to get into pretty clothes by Christmas.
Plus, I've still got [i]my[/i] HS jeans in the bottom of the closet.[/quote]

Good for you and good luck on obtaining your goal!

That said, I've never met anyone, man or woman, who was fine with growing too big for their clothes and having to go up sizes. Your sister doesn't sound unhealthy slim, so a little sympathy wouldn't hurt, IMHO.

I also think that the body obsession promoted by the fashion industry is accompanied by a youth obsession. People are hardly encouraged to accept the changes brought by aging, like wrinkles, grey hair and weight gain/slowing metabolism.

[BrightSider]

May I volunteer a few boys to walk the catwalk? Because I know some of them would just [i][/i]love to meet Karl :thumbsup:

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='nazfyratu' post='1690796' date='Feb 18 2009, 05.38']"The bone is for the dog; the meat is for the man."[/quote]
I thought the bone was for the woman?

[SquireThomas]

[quote]I don't think anyone is saying that thin women should be told not to be thin, only that no one- slender or curvy- should starve themselves to fit an archaic idea of what looks good on a cat walk.[/quote]

I'm not sure we're reading the same thread. Did you see Stego's posts? Or Lit Lords? This is twice as obnoxious because it seems to happen every time this topic is discussed: we're all buried by an avalanche of internet white knights who fall all over themselves saying how much they don't like thin women. Well, let me go on record as saying that I like slender girls just fine, have dated several, and are perfectly womanly, thank you very much. It's not like all smaller girls are starving themselves or have an eating disorder, they just look that way.

Strangely, the same thing happened when we discussed blond hair, in that the majority of men started talking about how much they didn't like blonds. The need of guys to portray themselves as sensitive or against the grain or whatever is really odd.

[Stubby]

[quote name='SquireThomas' post='1691780' date='Feb 19 2009, 14.31']This is twice as obnoxious because it seems to happen every time this topic is discussed: we're all buried by an avalanche of internet white knights who fall all over themselves saying how much they don't like thin women.[/quote]

I presume you raise the "internet white knight" comment to suggest that the guys who are posting here with their views on this story are not being honest and are maybe saying these things hiding behind an internet persona? If so, then your comment is presumptive and patronising. If not, what exactly do you mean?

[quote]Strangely, the same thing happened when we discussed blond hair, in that the majority of men started talking about how much they didn't like blonds. The need of guys to portray themselves as sensitive or against the grain or whatever is really odd.[/quote]

Your last sentence assumes that the guys that have posted in this thread do actually like blondes, or their women thin, and are just saying otherwise to somehow appear more sensitive. If so, it is again presumptive and patronising. If not, again, what do you mean?

Just because you like thin women and blondes (which appears to be your preference and your personal tastes having regard to your post) does not mean that every man who says otherwise is "going against the grain to appear sensitive". They may just dislike blondes and thin women.

[SquireThomas]

[quote]I presume you raise the "internet white knight" comment to suggest that the guys who are posting here with their views on this story are not being honest and are maybe saying these things hiding behind an internet persona? If so, then your comment is presumptive and patronising.[/quote]

Yay! Does this mean I get my gold star for the day?

[quote]Your last sentence assumes that the guys that have posted in this thread do actually like blondes, or their women thin, and are just saying otherwise to somehow appear more sensitive. If so, it is again presumptive and patronising. If not, again, what do you mean?[/quote]

Heh, you are so [i]serious[/i], it's touching :). My point is I think a lot of guys here say what they think the women of the board want to hear. You can call it presumptive if you like, but the so-called preferences of guys here on any number of topics so totally contradict empyrical evidence that I really don't think so.

[quote]Just because you like thin women and blondes (which appears to be your preference and your personal tastes having regard to your post) does not mean that every man who says otherwise is "going against the grain to appear sensitive". They may just dislike blondes and thin women.[/quote]

Did I say every? You may be the world's premiere thin-blond hater (hey, I believe it :P ), I'm just saying that some of our compatriots may be a little less than honest about their actual preferences.

[Galactus]

[quote]Heh, you are so serious, it's touching . My point is I think a lot of guys here say what they think the women of the board want to hear. You can call it presumptive if you like, but the so-called preferences of guys here on any number of topics so totally contradict empyrical evidence that I really don't think so.[/quote]

It depends on how you define "thin", but most studies have shown that A) For most men it's not weight itself that's important but the waist-hip-chest ratio. And B) runway models aren't usually considered the most attractive women.

[Stego]

So, if these Internet White Knights (Heinlein help me, this is the first time I've been called such. I'm usually the asshole.) are lying and every man is supposed to like what the fashion industry tells us to like...

You know what? Fuck that nonsense. I like tits and ass and hips. I prefer brunettes. (Although I've known some amazingly beautiful redheads and blondes and enjoyed them in ever way possible.) I don't give a shit if you like it. I don't give a shit if the women on this board like it. I also dislike fake breasts and I like it when a girls eyes are squinty because it generally means she likes to laugh a lot. I don't know why I'm attracted to this, I just bloody well am.

I've never watched the Victoria's Secret fashion show because I do not find those women attractive. I've dated a bodybuilder and a model (yeah, both were blonde) and the bodybuilder was an amazing lover while the model's pubic bone gave me bruises which sidelined me for weeks at a time. I dated her because she was incredibly sweet to me, and I constantly encouraged her to eat pastry. (Now that I think about it, to be completely forthcoming, both of these girls had their hair colored darker because of offhand -- probably somewhat callous -- remarks about how I usually preferred brunettes.)

Now?

Now I'm blessed to be married to a beautiful, curvy, brunette woman who is my reason to get up every morning.



I've always been a big believer that men are attracted to women, and that pathetic little boys waste their lives masturbating to airbrushed photos of Barbie dolls.


Oh, and stretch marks on the hips turn me on. I don't fucking apologize for that, either.

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='SquireThomas' post='1691780' date='Feb 19 2009, 07.31']I'm not sure we're reading the same thread. Did you see Stego's posts? Or Lit Lords? This is twice as obnoxious because it seems to happen every time this topic is discussed: we're all buried by an avalanche of internet white knights who fall all over themselves saying how much they don't like thin women. Well, let me go on record as saying that I like slender girls just fine, have dated several, and are perfectly womanly, thank you very much. It's not like all smaller girls are starving themselves or have an eating disorder, they just look that way.[/quote]


Maybe a lot of men aren't as charmed by the stick thing supermodel ideal as you are. Just because it is touted as the way women are supposed to be doesn't mean everyone actually wants that just because they are told to.


Personally I have never been attracted to Baywatch stars, Brad Pitt or Jude Law. Does that mean I am fighting for the ugly guys out there or just that I prefer something different? It's precisely the same thing.

The fact of the matter is also that a lot of grown women have to starve themselves to fit in a size 0. Size 0 doesn't mean slim, it means stick thin, especially for a woman who is 1.80m. My sister is tiny, probably a UK size 8, and I don't think she would even fit in those clothes.


[url="http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/ap/nyr10601121937.widec.jpg"]Would you say this woman is slim and healthy or too thin?[/url] She is a model on the catwalk.

[litechick]

I read somewhere about internet dating sites and how people will overwhelmingly say in their profile that they are interested in all races but actually never make contact with people who are not their own race.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that men may like thin women moreso than is being displayed in this thread, but there's no call for accusing anyone of being disengenuous. It's probably more likely that those who do enjoy a skinny woman simply don't post in the thread.

I imagine that its a hard line to walk, liking skinny women but not wishing for anyone to endanger their health in order to acheive it.

[for the purposes of stating my opinion in this thread, I feel compelled to point out that my handle is in relation to my profession, not my size. I am by no means lite. I enjoy the irony but I can see where it might cause some confusion of impressions.]

[needle]

y'know, it really sucks to be a fat blonde. Nobody wants us :P

[Stego]

[quote name='needle' post='1691941' date='Feb 19 2009, 04.37']y'know, it really sucks to be a fat blonde. Nobody wants us :P[/quote]



Yeah, you're a fucking hag, Fee.

[Mme Erzulie]

[quote name='needle' post='1691941' date='Feb 19 2009, 11.37']y'know, it really sucks to be a fat blonde. Nobody wants us :P[/quote]

If I were you, I'd go for a drunken Scottish minger.

[GoN]

Bronn, SquireThomas,

I took the spirit of the thread to be more of an acceptance of women in their natural states. Whether a person prefers a thin woman, or a curvy one, I would think we all agree that we don't want any woman to feel the social pressure to develop an eating disorder, or starve herself in order to fulfill a sterile ideal of beauty. Variety is the spice of life and all that.

[Guest Raidne]

I don't think the guys in this forum are being dishonest at all. It's a fantasy book forum after all - have you ever [i]seen[/i] a woman character on the cover of a fantasy book?

And I'm not a guy or anything, but I think we're probably blowing it a little out of proportion. A guy can say his ideal is a curvy brunette, but from what I understand, it doesn't mean that they're never going to think any other type of woman is hot.

As far as I can tell, guys are fine with skinny girls as long as they're not starving themselves to be that way. And I think that would pretty much disqualify nearly every runway model. I do think there's not much of a connection between society's picture of a beautiful woman and haute couture models. We're not talking about women who are 5'4" and wear a size zero, we're talking about women who are 5'11" and weigh 110 lbs.

[Tobin]

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1691931' date='Feb 19 2009, 04.15'][url="http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/ap/nyr10601121937.widec.jpg"]Would you say this woman is slim and healthy or too thin?[/url] She is a model on the catwalk.[/quote]

Holy gods - did they remove that chick's internal organs too?

I guess this is along the same lines - but there was an article recently about the Barbie fashion show with real human models wearing clothing designed for the doll. There were even a few interviews with women who had plastic surgery to look more like the toy - it was pretty disturbing :stunned: .

[Eponine]

The problem isn't that people have preferences, but that little snips at the people who don't fit their preferences come out. It really does seem that when these threads come up, everyone is jumping all over themselves to say "oh I don't like thin women, they aren't attractive, real women are curvy women".

[i]I've always been a big believer that men are attracted to women, and that pathetic little boys waste their lives masturbating to airbrushed photos of Barbie dolls.[/i]

Even though I understand the intent is critical toward runway models and unnaturally thin women, there's still an implicit connection of "curvy" to "woman" and very thin to "not a REAL woman".

[i]I imagine that its a hard line to walk, liking skinny women but not wishing for anyone to endanger their health in order to acheive it.[/i]

Again, the implication that a preference for thin is tied to unhealthiness. I'm not criticizing anyone for preferences, but with hair color as far as I know it's more of just a "I prefer this". When weight is brought up, there's a "thin isn't womanly" vibe.

[Guest Raidne]

Ep, I gotta be honest. I don't think anybody would say that a hot but skinny guy, like Jude Law, is "manly" either. Just like we wouldn't describe Kate Moss as "womanly." Nevertheless they are both pretty much universally considered to be extremely attractive. So I think it's fair to say that "womanly" as a term generally means curvy. But I don't think "womanly" is synonymous with "women who are attractive." In fact, womanly can even be used to describe a woman that you don't think is attractive.

I mean, The Rock is certainly manlier than Jude Law, but I'll take Jude Law any day, thanks.

As far as the comments about Barbies and pathetic men.....you may have noticed that Barbie is not actually particularly thin? I mean, she has a small waist, but she's curvier than Heidi Klum, or would be if she was real. So I don't think that's a comment about skinny women at all - that's a comment about how airbrushing has altered our expectations of what real women should look like. Real women of [i]all[/i] shapes. OTOH, maybe porn in high-def will solve some of those problems. ;)

Lastly, people, in a thread about [i]models[/i] associate thin with unhealthy because of these news stories about models fainting from lack of nutrition and the efforts countries like Milan have taken to ensure that models have a BMI in the healthy range. If you have a BMI of less than 18.5, I'm sorry, you're probably unhealthy. Just like I have a BMI of 25, and am considered overweight (by .1, naturally). Still, I take that seriously. I don't start bitching about society's expectations and all that. I just know I'm a little overweight. And if a person is underweight, it's the same thing.

You're right, though, that it's PC to say that someone is too thin, but it's not at all PC to say that someone is overweight. There [i]is[/i] something messed up about that.