Football nº 10

[Paddy]

Loras, your explanation makes less sense than your original claims.

You accuse Mormont of being jealous without any reason and yet your posts here seem to show that you are guilty of being blinded by a strong dislike of Calderon and a belief that Perez is somehow your saviour when very close to everyone else who has an interest in the footballing world thinks that Perez is a rash fool who likes to gamble big with other people's money.

I mean, you call him a genius, but if you pick any twit from the street and ask them to choose a team of top quality players and they name Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo, would you call them a genius?

No, he's playing Championship Manager and that's about it.

Indeed. But he is accountable for it with his own personal wealth, in case you didn't know.

Apparently that is not true:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle6426983.ece

Now that Perez has been elected, does he have to fund the club?

No. In fact, he's not allowed to. He simply runs the club. Of course, Pérez is one of the wealthiest men in Europe, with wide-ranging business interests. No doubt he can leverage them to help the club, particularly when it comes to their relationship with banks and sponsors. Ultimately, though, he cannot finance the club. And, of course, he's not supposed to benefit from it financially.

[mormont]

Short answer: yes.

A bloody 30M€ of a way-out clause forces you honour that ridiculous contract.

Accurate answer: no.

Regardless of what Calderon did or didn't do, Perez made it crystal clear all along that his priority was to sign C-Ronaldo at any price. The Calderon contract was therefore totally irrelevant, in the end. You can certainly argue it would have forced Perez to make the signing - if it wasn't for the fact that he repeatedly and loudly insisted he was going to sign the player anyway. You can't claim Perez was forced to do something he always intended to do!

And if the rumours of a buy-out clause are correct, the only price it was ever going to happen at was 100m euros. It was Perez who bought the player, Perez who agreed to the price, so it's Perez' responsibility.

No. Only Calderón. An asshole that by the way, mugged a "socios" annual meeting (=annual shareholder's meeting) to get his budget approved using the UltraSur mob as his pretorian guard.

I hold no brief for Calderon, believe me. So you've no need to persuade me of his asshole status. ;) But him being an asshole doesn't make him to blame for Perez' decision to pay horrendous transfer fees. Nor does it make Perez a hero. It is always possible, awful as the thought may be, that they're both assholes. :P

Indeed. But he is accountable for it with his own personal wealth, in case you didn't know.

Not as I understood it. I thought the club would have to be declared bankrupt for his guarantee to kick in, and that is never going to happen. Also, I understand the guarantee is only for 15% of the budget - admittedly that's a huge sum.

Did Perez actually put up his own personal wealth, by the way, rather than a guarantee from one of his companies or secured by a bank?

And what's wrong with you about F.P?

Jealousy perhaps, Mormie?

;)

I have no really strong feelings one way or the other about Perez: my club are never likely to be in competition with Madrid, for a start. :P It's a different kind of football altogether, really, once that kind of cash is being thrown about: one that's more like a soap opera than a sport, fun to read about in the papers sometimes but I wouldn't want to be involved in it. (God knows our owner's bad enough.)

I suspect the bias in this discussion is in the other direction, which is why you're so keen to blame someone else for Perez' mistakes. ;)

[The Inquisitor]

Loras, your explanation makes less sense than your original claims.

You accuse Mormont of being jealous without any reason

And the winking smiley didn't give me away?

;)

and yet your posts here seem to show that you are guilty of being blinded by a strong dislike of Calderon and a belief that Perez is somehow your saviour when very close to everyone else who has an interest in the footballing world thinks that Perez is a rash fool who likes to gamble big with other people's money.

I mean, you call him a genius, but if you pick any twit from the street and ask them to choose a team of top quality players and they name Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo, would you call them a genius?

No, he's playing Championship Manager and that's about it.

But he is Paddy.

Not because he is playing championship manager, but because it is extremely (and I say extremely) difficult to land one of those players. Just one of them. Uno. Just ask Man City, Abramovich, Moratti, etc.

And Perez had landed 2 of them, the last 2 ballon d'or winners at it, in the space of 10 days. Its a massive achievement, if you ask me. I guess most people would agree with that.

And not only that, if i remember correctly he managed to lure some other apparently good players in the past. Oh yes, I think they were Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo & Beckham. ;)

Apparently that is not true:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle6426983.ece

No, that's wrong.

Candidates for the presidency must present a bank endorsement of 60M€ as a sine-qua-non condition to opt for the presidency. And that endorsement is a personal one. The candidate must answer for it with his own personal wealth. If at the end of his/her term, the club records a net loss, the guarantee is automatically executed.

Mormont

Accurate answer: no.

Regardless of what Calderon did or didn't do, Perez made it crystal clear all along that his priority was to sign C-Ronaldo at any price. The Calderon contract was therefore totally irrelevant, in the end. You can certainly argue it would have forced Perez to make the signing - if it wasn't for the fact that he repeatedly and loudly insisted he was going to sign the player anyway. You can't claim Perez was forced to do something he always intended to do!

I entirely disagree here. The price tag was secondary (or at least non-negotiable) once that idiot of Calderon's contract contained that 30M€ clause. From what I understand, Perez tried to barter for C-R, with the argument that he was coming for him and was conscious that the price tag was going to be gargantuan (say, 70M€?). But Man Utd didn't cut him some slack. It was either a take it (100M€ option + player) or leave it (-30M€) thing.

Nor does it make Perez a hero. It is always possible, awful as the thought may be, that they're both assholes. :P

Heresy! Intolerable!

You shall suffer, master mormont.

:P

I have no really strong feelings one way or the other about Perez: my club are never likely to be in competition with Madrid, for a start. :P It's a different kind of football altogether, really, once that kind of cash is being thrown about: one that's more like a soap opera than a sport, fun to read about in the papers sometimes but I wouldn't want to be involved in it. (God knows our owner's bad enough.)

One thing I'll grant to you though: the galactico policy, although exhilarating and awe inspiring in planet football; also creates fear and dislike in equal amounts outside our fandom. Its a bliss though for Real Madrid supporters. ;)

I suspect the bias in this discussion is in the other direction, which is why you're so keen to blame someone else for Perez' mistakes. ;)

Valid point.

And probably true at it.

[Slick Mongoose]

Kaká + CR. Bloody hell, a mouth watering combo... :love: And that without considering the likes of Villa, Silva, Alonso... :lol:

Not planning on signing any defenders this time either, then? :P

[The Inquisitor]

Not planning on signing any defenders this time either, then? :P

Are you joking?

We are half tempted to offload Casillas and put Ribery as a flying goalie instead. :P

We bought Garay last year. Good central defender. It also seems we are trailing after Albiol.

[ljkeane]

One thing I'll grant to you though: the galactico policy, although exhilarating and awe inspiring in planet football; also creates fear and dislike in equal amounts outside our fandom. Its a bliss though for Real Madrid supporters. ;)

I'm far from convinced that it's not going to be a complete disaster though, I don't think that signing Kaka and Ronaldo makes you that much closer to Barca and they don't solve any of the major issues that I think Real have.

Wasn't Perez the man in charge when Real sold Makalele, probably one of the worst decisions in the history of football? That wouldn't inspire confidence in me.

[The Inquisitor]

I'm far from convinced that it's not going to be a complete disaster though, I don't think that signing Kaka and Ronaldo makes you that much closer to Barca and they don't solve any of the major issues that I think Real have.

True.

It doesn't make us play footie as Barça have been doing. What Kaká and C-R must do is play together, play well and lift silverware. Much as Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Eto'o have done.

However it is equally true that any team is potentially going to play better footie with players of the calibre of Kaka, Cristiano Ronaldo, Villa and Alonso in their side.

So its a step forward... at least.

Wasn't Perez the man in charge when Real sold Makalele, probably one of the worst decisions in the history of football? That wouldn't inspire confidence in me.

Equally true. :(

However he was the one who brought Zidane to Real Madrid. And he was also in charge when Real Madrid were playing the finest footie seen in Europe for a number of years. There were lights and shades in his first stint. Let's hope for our sake that he has reflected on what went wrong and doesn't repeat those mistakes.

[DJDonegal]

So Fabregas has said "Of course I see my future at Arsenal. I have a long contract with the club."

Translation: "I am stuck here by this contract, please come get me or I will be stuck here for many years to come."

This makes me sad. :(

[Mathis]

So Fabregas has said "Of course I see my future at Arsenal. I have a long contract with the club."

Translation: "I am stuck here by this contract, please come get me or I will be stuck here for many years to come."

This makes me sad. :(

I don't understand Fabregas' attitude. He's a want away; fair enough, Arsenal have been trophyless for a long time.

But what are his options? As good as he is, he wouldn't get near a starting place at Barca, and with Real Madrid sigining C-R and Kaka they aren't in the market for a playmaker. So what's left? Inter, Juve or Milan. Prestigious clubs no doubt, but they aren't a step up from Arsenal in terms of competitiveness.

WRT Real Madrid, I don't think they are as defensively suspect as during Perez' initial tenure. Both Lassana and Mahamadou Diarra are better defensive midfielders than any Real have had since Makalele left. Pepe might be a headcase but he is a quality CB. Another decent defender and left back and they will be as good as anyone, at least on paper.

[Isis]

Cesc, save our season!

That's all I'm saying. :)

[Master Aune]

A team can only have 24 players. Know Real has a team of 28 players and they are geting David Villa pluss two defenders. Real will then be 31. sow I think they have to sell 5 players or more this summer.

how do you think they will sell?

how da you want for your team of the players that Real will sell this summer?

[mormont]

I entirely disagree here. The price tag was secondary (or at least non-negotiable) once that idiot of Calderon's contract contained that 30M€ clause. From what I understand, Perez tried to barter for C-R, with the argument that he was coming for him and was conscious that the price tag was going to be gargantuan (say, 70M€?). But Man Utd didn't cut him some slack. It was either a take it (100M€ option + player) or leave it (-30M€) thing.

I still fail to see how the clause had anything to do with the price tag. The only way the Calderon clause could have had any effect is if Perez would otherwise have been willing to walk away from the deal altogether (not at all credible) or if he would otherwise have paid less than €70m (not at all credible).

Consider the facts: regardless of the existence of the clause, Man U would almost certainly never have let C-Ronaldo go at €70m. That's the same as Perez bid for Kaka: and Milan were a good deal keener to sell, even if you don't accept that C-Ronaldo is a better player (for our purposes, it only matters whether Man U consider him a better player anyway). Also, as I have mentioned more than once, since Perez had publicly declared that he'd pay whatever he had to, Perez could not possibly 'barter': he had abandoned any pretence of a negotiating position. Finally, it's widely rumoured that the only reason even the €100m bid was accepted was because there was a clause in C-Ronaldo's contract saying it had to be.

So I don't believe for a second that Perez ever seriously thought he could get the player for €70m. He might be saying that now, in an attempt to blame Calderon, but if so it has no serious credibility.

ETA: couple of other points. You made reference above to C-Ronaldo 'appreciating in value'. This is wishful thinking. For a start, there are only two other clubs in the world who could pay more than €100m for him. Of those I think one would not be interested at that price, and the other would not interest the player. Secondly, the penalty clause amounted to a years' wages for C-Ronaldo. That cost should properly be offset against his wages, then, rather than the transfer fee. It appears certain that Calderon agreed the players' salary. You can blame him for that if you like. ;)

One thing I'll grant to you though: the galactico policy, although exhilarating and awe inspiring in planet football; also creates fear and dislike in equal amounts outside our fandom. Its a bliss though for Real Madrid supporters. ;)

I don't recall them being very happy about it towards the end of Perez' last reign. The criticisms then were the same as they are now: buying lots of expensive attacking players is a deeply flawed strategy in a footballing sense because it sacrifices team structure and tactics, makes life impossible for the manager and isn't long-term financially sustainable. Works a treat as a short-term marketing strategy and to get the members on your side, though. ;)

I don't understand Fabregas' attitude. He's a want away; fair enough, Arsenal have been trophyless for a long time.

But what are his options? As good as he is, he wouldn't get near a starting place at Barca, and with Real Madrid sigining C-R and Kaka they aren't in the market for a playmaker. So what's left? Inter, Juve or Milan. Prestigious clubs no doubt, but they aren't a step up from Arsenal in terms of competitiveness.

I disagree. They each have a better chance of winning Serie A than Arsenal have of winning the Premier League.

[polishgenius]

I love the fact that Cesc saying 'I want to stay' is taking to definitely mean 'I want to leave'. It's like it's impossible that he might actually want to stay where he is. They've got a shot next season with one good signing.

[Jon AS]

In non-Championship-Manager-related news Schalke's Jermaine Jones has decided that he will be turning out for US national team from now on instead of the German one. Not a huge loss given that Ballack, Hitzlsperger, Rolfes and Frings are all still clearly better than him and even after Ballack and Frings retire, younger and more promising players like Stuttgart's Khedira will be coming through. He probably figured he stands a much better chance of making the US team, but I've got to say that 27 years and three caps is a hell of a long time to come to that conclusion.

[Daeric]

I love the fact that Cesc saying 'I want to stay' is taking to definitely mean 'I want to leave'. It's like it's impossible that he might actually want to stay where he is. They've got a shot next season with one good signing.

Thats probably due to the fact that any time a high profile footballer says it they always then seem to be within the next few months to be off to a different club.

I can only really think of Gerrad, Carragher and the Neville brothers in the premiship that I would believe if they said they want to stay.

[Maltaran]

For a start, there are only two other clubs in the world who could pay more than €100m for him. Of those I think one would not be interested at that price, and the other would not interest the player.

Chelsea is one - is the other Man City?

[mormont]

Chelsea is one - is the other Man City?

Yes, that's the two I had in mind. It's always possible, I guess, that Man City will become a world-conquering behemoth in the next three or four years and I might be wrong about C-Ronaldo being willing to go there - but I strongly doubt it.

[DJDonegal]

I love the fact that Cesc saying 'I want to stay' is taking to definitely mean 'I want to leave'. It's like it's impossible that he might actually want to stay where he is. They've got a shot next season with one good signing.

What Jon said. Add in my pessimism as an Arsenal fan and you get my conclusion.

Anyway, at this point I couldn't actually blame the man for wanting to leave. Arsenal haven't won anything in donkeys years. Cesc is our best player by a country mile, although the signing of Arshavin is at least a show of intent. But strikers are our strongest position in depth by a long way. We have Arshavin, Adebayor, van Persie, Eduardo and the upcoming Vela (who will soon need to be playing league games to continue his promising development).

In defence we are shockingly low in depth and have been for years. Despite this, Gallas has to go. He causes too much dressing room angst, which doesn't come as a surprise following his "strike" tactics while he was at Chelsea. So we're even shallower back there, and Silvestre isn't good enough to be in a team that hopes to win the league. We need at least two very solid centre backs to back up Toure.

We need, need, need a defensive midfielder. We have never come close to replacing Viera. I'd say that Lassana Diarra could have become that replacement with time, and I'll never understand why Wenger sold him to Portsmouth. There's a reason Real Madrid have him - he oozes promise. Flamini was solid for us before this season, and I was disappointed to see him go to Milan because we had nobody to step in. Surely Wenger should have been able to sit down and talk to Flamini and Diarra and see where they saw their futures - instead we lost two solid if not exceptional defensive midfielders in the space of 4 months and were left with nothing to fall back on.

And as long as Eboue is still getting in the team, we're doing something wrong.

[polishgenius]

I'd say that Lassana Diarra could have become that replacement with time, and I'll never understand why Wenger sold him to Portsmouth.

Because he was a prick who thought he was just going to walk into the first team. Same reason as Chelsea sold him.

I honestly think Arsenal aren't that far off - you were what, three points off the title the season before last? You need a defensive midfielder (Gatusso is potentially available - he'd only be a short-term fix but he'd be the sort of thing you need), and ideally another CB, but other than that I think you're fine. Left-back is a problem but it's a position you can carry while players develop - we are, after all, with the right-back area.

Also, afaik you still haven't lost a game in which Arshavin has started... and while I'm fairly sure we'd have beaten you in the league if we'd had to, that man worries me, I reckon he's your best player since Henry.

[Master Aune]

If Arsenal need a Dm what about M.dirra at Real Madrid.

Good but Real need to sell some players and need some money to come in to the club.

Liverpool fans: Alonso for Robben and Glen Johnson for £17 mill