Genderfail and you

[Shryke]

There are no telling smileys, but I'm pretty certain he's not being serious.

Bah, joking? Not in a million years. This dichotomy is merely a natural consequence of breasts being made of brain matter (that should be in the brain). Why do you think men find a nice rack so appealing. Men are, naturally, most attracted to a women for her intelligence.

[Werthead]

This thread has adhered to its name and developed a lot of fail. For the record, tons of sexist jokes, even in an 'ironic context', are not the way to go. If this carries on posts will start being deleted or the thread closed.

[Silverstar]

To be honest, the name of the author is probably the last thing I look at when choosing new books, unless I've gone to the bookshop in order to look for new books by a specific author. Choosing a new book is far more about reading the blurb, flicking through a few pages to see if I like the writing style, and seeing if there looks to be any characters I can identify with.

I'd say I'm probably about 50/50 when it comes to male/female authors on my bookshelf, but that might be due to the types of book I read. Although fantasy is my favourite genre, I also read a lot of thrillers, crime, historical fiction, and even, dare I say it, chick lit now and then.

Oddly enough, I was thinking about why I liked certain authors more than others, and it is all about the characters for me. Then I realised than in many cases, the male authors I enjoyed the most were due to their really well-written female characters, whereas the female authors I liked best were mostly due to their well-written male characters. Bizarre.

[Isis]

This thread has adhered to its name and developed a lot of fail. For the record, tons of sexist jokes, even in an 'ironic context', are not the way to go. If this carries on posts will start being deleted or the thread closed.

Quite. I almost forgot which board I was on and was looking for the 'delete post' button myself.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Off the top of my head I would nominate the Deeds of Paksenarrion trilogy by Elizabeth Moon. I guess it also gets bonus points for having much of the violence carried out by a female character. The fight sequences in isolation qualify as mindless bad-ass violence, in my opinion, but I guess if you look at the books as a whole the characters as such aren't as bad-ass as say Logen Ninefingers or Karsa Orlong.

Other than that the female authors I've read haven't really done the mindless violence thing, which isn't to say that they can't, obviously, just that they haven't.

Indeed. This is the entirety of my friends idea on the difference between gender writing. The Sterkham Handshake was the only other series i could think of written by a woman that had a decent amount of badass but its YA so it doesn't really count.

Anyhow thank for the rec.

[Larry.]

OK, so puzzle this: In this house female authors of science fiction are vastly unrepresented. Also, when it comes to a series regarding vampires there is only one male author. Is that sexism? Which way? Would that be my wife? Or me?

I still say this is total horseshit.

First off, when have I ever used the word "sexist." Stop putting words into my mouth that I didn't say or even think. Having biases does not directly correlate with sexism, which is a conscious decision.

As for the profanity... :thumbsdown:

[Happy Ent]

This thread has adhered to its name and developed a lot of fail.

Nonsense, Werthead. The thread, so far, stands head and shoulders above the postmodernist social science standard model lit crit orthodoxy that is routinely flaunted on this board. Dylanf makes an original post that many boarders think is utter bullshit. So do I. And they say so, pretty erudite and to the point.

For the record, tons of sexist jokes, even in an 'ironic context', are not the way to go.

Bullshit. Learn to count, man! Affinity with opinions prevalent in the social science does not necessarily render you innumerate. “Tons� You’re completely off the mark.

If this carries on posts will start being deleted or the thread closed.

Ah, the orthodoxy strikes again! Any kind of pomo nonsense is apparently not only tolerated, it is shrouded in the moderator’s veil of immunity. Humor, at this board: only ever at the expense of creationists, the Right, and stupid people.

You’re over the line Wert. Really.

[Lyanna Stark]

You do seem to be implying that unless you intentionally set out to read a sufficient number of books written by female authors you are at best a subconcious sexist.

I personally don't choose what books I will read based on the gender of the author but I can say for this year the number of books I've read by female authors is considerably higher than 20%, it could just as easily been 0% either way I don't

think the gender of the authors of the books I choose to read says anything significant about my social biases.

But it does say something significant about you. That you have subconscious biases. It's the same thing with all the people who either don't like books written by women or don't think it is an issue that they never read books by women: bias, pure and simple.

Just accept it already. It's nothing you will go to jail for, it just makes you...biased. Being unaware of your bias isn't a saving grace either, it just makes you unaware it's there.

Then you can

a) ignore it

or

b) do something about it

I don't understand why people can't admit they have a bias instead of violently protesting it, especially after saying "gender is nothing I care about", but then saying they don't read anything by feamle authors. So clearly, there is something that makes the reader not pick stories written by women.

[ljkeane]

But it does say something significant about you. That you have subconscious biases. It's the same thing with all the people who either don't like books written by women or don't think it is an issue that they never read books by women: bias, pure and simple.

Just accept it already. It's nothing you will go to jail for, it just makes you...biased. Being unaware of your bias isn't a saving grace either, it just makes you unaware it's there.

If the only factor which you based your decision on what to read was the gender of the author then if the number of books you read by female authors didn't reflect the proportion of female authors in the genre it would indicate that you have either a concious or unconcious gender bias. However there a huge number of factors which determine what people like to read and since this is the case the number of female authors you have read is in no way a definitve indication of any gender bias.

I'm not saying that I don't like to read female authors and since this topic has been irritating me I've looked at how many books I own by female authors and it makes up a significant proportion all the books I own, having said that when I chose to buy these books the gender of the author was never a consideration.

All I am saying is that so many factors subconcious or not go into what people like that making sweeping generalizations about their subconcious biases based on very little information is at best simplistic and most probably wrong.

[kungtotte]

So let's say I wanted to make a conscious choice to read more books by female authors, what would you recommend? Anything to be found in the vein of Glen Cook's Black Company books? Something along the lines of The First Law trilogy? Or you know, anything that's plain good. I'm not really concerned that I'm biased in my selection of books, but since female authors are clearly underrepresented in my bookshelf I'm wondering if maybe I'm missing something.

[dalThor]

First off, when have I ever used the word "sexist." Stop putting words into my mouth that I didn't say or even think. Having biases does not directly correlate with sexism, which is a conscious decision.

As for the profanity... :thumbsdown:

Let me rephrase that then: OK, so puzzle this: In this house female authors of science fiction are vastly unrepresented. Also, when it comes to a series regarding vampires there is only one male author. Is that bias? Which way? Would that be my wife? Or me?

My first post which seems to have gone ignored by you stated that there are just too many variables here for this 'theory' to hold water.

[Foreverlad]

While I'm sure there are cases of gender bias, I'd believe (though maybe not argue) that more readers suffer from second-hand gender bias than first hand. Take, for instance, this message board. How many recommendations and fan-favorites are female authored?

Lets take into account some of the contributing factors that lead to the purchase (and reading) of a novel:

Recommendations

Display Space/Promotions in book stores

Genre/Subject Matter

Type of Book (part of a series, standalone, anthology, etc)

Bibliography (1 or 2 books, 10-20, 30+?)

Availability/Cost

Disgust for Goodkind is what originally brought me to these boards. I started appreciating the opinions of boarders and wanted to start seeing what books they were interested in, so I started following up on some of their recommendations. Which ones? Usually I'd focus on what seemed to be the most popular: Martin, Bakker, Abercrombie, etc.

With the limited amount of cash at my disposal, I can't build a huge pile of TBRs. The library offerings here where I live, frankly, suck. Each dollar I spend toward a book is an investment. I research an author and their work as much as I would consider the pros and cons of purchasing a new piece of computer hardware.

I could potentially be 'guilty' of second hand gender bias if most of the recommendations on this board come from those predisposed toward male writers. Then again, what factors determine their reading lists? Which of the aforementioned contributing factors could be gender biased in themselves? Do bookstores cater to particular authors or subject matter? Are the highest grossing sales for female authors wrapped around particular subjects or genres? Does genre-wide bias skew the potential attention a female author could be given, thus making non-biased individuals less likely to find their work?

The number (or lackthereof) of female authors on my shelf is more indicative of what I'm exposed to that what I'm likely biased against. Altering the my cyber-social circles to expose myself to further influence isn't that high on my list of priorities. Not because I'm biased against what I might find, but because I'm more biased against being poor.

[Stego]

I recall, 6 or 7 years ago, making the quite obvious statement that there are simply more talented SF/F authors who happen to have outties than innies. This was met with a lot of anger and slander.

I will wait in line for a new Ursula LeGuin. Anne McCaffrey is the reason I got into science fiction as a child. Katherine Patterson wrote my favorite childrens book. I've gone to Harry Potter parties. Leigh Brackett is my second favorite golden age writer and she wrote the BEST science fiction movie of all time! (The Empire Strikes Back) Mary Gentle never fails to amaze. Liz Moon writes great fiction, and makes me proud she is a fellow Marine. M. Rickert, Kelly Link, and Margo Lanagan just about corner the market on short fiction these days, and I read everything they write. Jacqueline Carey's books are bought on release day. Colleen McCullough wrote the best historical fiction series of all time, in my opinion. Shirley Jackson is as seminal in horror as Lovecraft. Margaret Atwood was as important as P.K. Dick. Joanna Russ fucked my mind up, and Alice Sheldon wrote the best SF short fiction collection I have ever had the pleasure to read.

But there are simply more quality books released written by men, IMO. And it's really too bad.

[dalThor]

But there are simply more quality books released written by men, IMO. And it's really too bad.

I'm not so sure this is the case. There's a lot of shit feces published by both men and women. I think it has to do more with numbers on a genre by genre basis. Let's face it, though I have no idea what the numbers might be, I'd say more romance novels are written by women whereas more sci-fi is written by men.

If that is true shouldn't we base our 'bias' question on the percentage of male verses female romance novels we read based on the percentages published by each? Sci-fi? Crime thrillers?

There's just too much we don't know here to make any correct statements here other than people who say they don't read male/female authors likely have some sort of bias. For the rest of us this is totally NOT worth arguing.

[Larry.]

Let me rephrase that then: OK, so puzzle this: In this house female authors of science fiction are vastly unrepresented. Also, when it comes to a series regarding vampires there is only one male author. Is that bias? Which way? Would that be my wife? Or me?

My first post which seems to have gone ignored by you stated that there are just too many variables here for this 'theory' to hold water.

Didn't mean to ignore your first post, but I think I addressed some of that in one of the comments from this morning. This topic is moving too fast for a sick person to keep up with right now, but I did acknowledge that there are a lot of variables that have to considered, but that selection bias is something that likely cannot be discounted. What form that bias takes is going to vary and I'm not seeking to make any definitive claims, but rather to get people to consider what they do and why they do it. For myself, the original form of this thread (on my blog) was as much of an admission that I want to broaden my reading horizons than anything else and the conversation there reflected that. That seems to have been derailed here and I'm one of many responsible for that.

As for the first part of your statement, that's between you and your wife to cipher; I'm no clairvoyant soul :P

[Shryke]

I just don't see why the gender of the author matters enough that you feel it's something that must be "fixed".

[IheartTesla]

Taking the assumption that women authors are less likely to present patriarchy as the natural and correct way the world works, or less likely to present female activities and characters in a boring or restricted light - which is not necessarily the case; I'd love some stats, but have none - a male reader even reading about a gender-neutral world as opposed to a matriarchal one might possibly have a negative reaction to those ideas underpinning the book, and interpret this as dislike.

Could be. Personally I dont have a problem with gender neutral worlds as long as they are internally consistent, just like I dont have a problem with fictional worlds where beetle-headed individuals coexist with humans, and technological developments seem frozen in the mid-1800's. Internal consistency is more important to me. The average Western male may have some problems with such a depiction though.

What I gleaned from previous iterations of such threads was that some male readers had problems with the depiction of male protagonists by female authors. Too feminized, to put it bluntly. I cant speak from personal experience though, since I can only remember Fitz by Robin Hobb who I thought was a whiny git more than anything else. The Fool, on the other hand, was a more fascinating read but had ambiguous sexuality. So it taught me nothing.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Put me in the camp who don't care for gender and will read anything if it gets enough good reviews on this board.

Anyhow i have a friend who says women can't do badass very well. As in mindless non-emotional violence that also manages not to cross the line into cheesy. Anyone got any ideas of a book that disproves this rule ?

JV Jones second series, Sword of Shadows, has some cool scenes. The protagonist, using an inate form of sorcery, can sense a creature/person's heart and can lock onto it when firing arrows or using a knife. There's a cool scene, where we see the start and the aftermath but not the actual action, where he slaughters three enemies in a form of berserker rage.

[Larry.]

I just don't see why the gender of the author matters enough that you feel it's something that must be "fixed".

It's a self-education thing more than anything else. If I discover that I'm keeping myself from opening up to new points of view/perspectives, I like to correct that, as I want to be open to new experiences whenever possible.

[Joanna vander Poele]

I know Hobb's publisher may have been trying to fool some prospective readers, but in the USA, Robin is a decidedly female name. In 1952, when "Megan Lindholm"/"Robin Hobb" was born, there were over three times as many girls given the name Robin as boys in the USA, so, in spite of Robin Williams, I think most Americans would have guessed a "Robin Hobb" writing fantasy novels was probably a woman. Readers who were really fooled by the genderless blurbs _wanted_ to be fooled. :)

Hogwash; I'm neither American nor British and I was quite surprised to find out Hobb was a lady.