The Wheel of Time

[Slurktan]

As I clearly said, it is possible the non-unified-by-Luthair Seanchan - non-unified because Luthair never went to Seanchan because he would be dead at Talidar, or later in the invasion - have travelled to the Westlands and launched their own invasion. The presence of the Seanchan exotics on the Westland continent indicates this as a possibility, since grolm cannot swim 5,000 miles, nor will to'raken carry them randomly.

If Luthair didn't go to Seanchan the wars there would continue until someone eventually came out on top, and once they had done that expansion to other landmasses is a logical development, especially if they have technologically evolved to the point of having jet aircraft.

Yes, and that someone would have been Ishamael or one of the other Forsaken I'd think. Regardless the "Seanchan exotics" as you put it don't necessarily have to come from Seanchan; they weren't originally native to Seanchan after all, they come from other worlds from Portal Stones. They could have been brought to the Westlands after Hawkwings death as a last desperate play by Channelers to stop the Shadow. Point is, you have no idea other than the Shadow destroyed Hawkwing and it's monument is still standing 1000 years later which necessitates that nothing that opposes the Shadow would still be around in the area.

The Shadow has not won. If it had won, the Dark One would be free and the world would have been destroyed.

Err ok. If you want to get into technicalities then the Shadow technically hasn't won yet. Much like for example if Manchester United were leading Aston Villa 22-0 in the extra time after 90 minutes, they haven't won quite yet either despite the fact the game is over and they've won.

[Lightning Lord]

The Seanchan exotics aren't from Seanchan? I don't remember that, reference? (please don't mistake my tone, I legitimately don't know what you're talking about and would like to)

[Shryke]

Exotics are from other worlds (or A other world) found through the portal stones.

[Old Nan]

Err ok. If you want to get into technicalities then the Shadow technically hasn't won yet. Much like for example if Manchester United were leading Aston Villa 22-0 in the extra time after 90 minutes, they haven't won quite yet either despite the fact the game is over and they've won.

If you're chained to a wall in the Tower of London and a plague kills off everyone on the outside, declaring victory won't avail you of much. Even if it's a plague of moronic animals who worship you as a god, because they have absolutely no ability to work open the locks.

[SpaceChampion]

Exotics are from other worlds (or A other world) found through the portal stones.

I don't remember that being explicitly stated in the books.

Was it from RJ himself or that World of the Wheel of Time thing I've never seen?

[Old Nan]

I don't remember that being explicitly stated in the books.

Was it from RJ himself or that World of the Wheel of Time thing I've never seen?

The latter.

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.

[Lightning Lord]

The latter.

Thanks! I've never read that book, I miss out on a lot.

[Werthead]

Was it from RJ himself or that World of the Wheel of Time thing I've never seen?

RJ himself wrote up the background of the exotics and handed it to Teresa Patterson to integrate into the book, so the information (as with almost all the info in the world book) is canon.

[elmis]

Apparently not everthing in the so-called Big White Book is "fact!", as far as I've understood. It's supposed to be like a compendium written by a person from Randland, and because of that it can contain errors. I think that's kinda stupid way to do it, personally, but that's what I have heard (from sources on Dragonmount, ect).

I often come off negative in these Wheel of Time threads, but I do love the books, it's just that I think there are some problems that stem from the world evolving as the books series itself grew to more volumes than expected.

Minor gripes like..

Urien says that Verin looks like a wise one in Book two, when she has the destinct "ageless" face, but when we see the wiseones, they don't have these "ageless" faces, because that comes from swearing on the oathrods (or that is the popular theory anyway). Nobody thinks the Kin look like Aes Sedai in later books, so how would Urien know she was a Wise One?

Nynaeve using Balefire to kill the three Myrddraal when they were captured by the riverbandits in book three. None of the dead Aiel (who fought these Myrddraal just seconds before) come back to life, even though Nynaeve, was furious and pulled all her power into the weave (even untrained and far from her potential full strenght, at least some backwards action should have occured). Balefire is later, in book four, explained to burn the thread backwards in time.

Malkier being lost to the shadow after they lost five thousand lancers in a reckless attack. Five thousand? In book five that is a minor skirmish for Mat outside Cairhien. I know the books bring up that "just a few years ago ten thousand would be a huge army", but still, you'd think that a true Borderland (at the time Shienar wasn't) would be able to muster at least 10 times that number in an instant, more since the books repeat that even a farmer in the Borderlands is about as good as a regular soldier in a southern Army. The current borderlander army in Braem Woods is at about 100 000. Four countries, that means each country has brough about 20 000 troops. Saldea then has nearly 30 000 troops south of their lands (with the small army Bashere has). Yet I doubt they are completely defenseless, less defense certainly, completely? Only if Tenobia is 100% brainless.

[Slurktan]

Yet I doubt they are completely defenseless, less defense certainly, completely? Only if Tenobia is 100% brainless.

They pretty much are defenseless. It's why Rand has Ituralde patrolling across the blightborder with Asha'man.

seltzzidc,

Using your analogy, if you are chained to the Tower of London but yet are perfectly fine(and always will be so) and the chains are slowly rotting off and no one is there to ever replace them once they are gone, you've won. Just not quite totally yet.

All,

Something I was thinking about last night. If there is only one DO across all the wrolds and he's chained in them all does that mean there's only one set of Forsaken too? Because if there isn't... what's to stop say Moridin from travelling to other Portal Worlds and getting those versions of the Forsaken to help on the main world?

[Slurktan]

Thanks! I've never read that book, I miss out on a lot.

Despite it's general crappyness the BWEB does have some interesting nuggets here and there. In particular there's "A Strike at Shayol Ghul" it's easily found online if you haven't read it yet. Fascinating little 'chronicle' about Lews Therin's attack to seal up the DO.

[Old Nan]

Using your analogy, if you are chained to the Tower of London but yet are perfectly fine(and always will be so) and the chains are slowly rotting off and no one is there to ever replace them once they are gone, you've won. Just not quite totally yet.

But I'm not sure it's warrented to suppose the chains are rotting. Only the later seals have become physically weakened; the first few seem to have cracked at key moments in Rand's development. I.e., given Aginor and Balthalmel's condition it seems unlikely the first opened until after the first time he used saidin; Turak's possession cracked when he first claimed the title of Dragon, etc. No Rand... no breaking?

[Shryke]

I think it's far more logical to assume it's the other way around.

Rand was born at the time he was BECAUSE the Seals would break then.

[Werthead]

Despite it's general crappyness the BWEB does have some interesting nuggets here and there. In particular there's "A Strike at Shayol Ghul" it's easily found online if you haven't read it yet. Fascinating little 'chronicle' about Lews Therin's attack to seal up the DO.

And notably some of the information in it proves important when Rand discovers it in The Gathering Storm (it appears to contain a major clue as to how the Dark One was able to taint saidin and perhaps how to avoid it again).

[SpaceChampion]

Nynaeve using Balefire to kill the three Myrddraal when they were captured by the riverbandits in book three. None of the dead Aiel (who fought these Myrddraal just seconds before) come back to life, even though Nynaeve, was furious and pulled all her power into the weave (even untrained and far from her potential full strenght, at least some backwards action should have occured). Balefire is later, in book four, explained to burn the thread backwards in time.

The girls had been burning the Myrddraal with Fire (contained by a barrier of Air) for at least a minute before Nynaeve used balefire. She obviously didn't use more than would burn the timeline back a few moments. Those Aiel had been dead several minutes by then.

[SpaceChampion]

Tuon is described as black as one of the Sea Folk. Artur Hawkwing is white, is he not? He's from some little nation that used to exist in the present day borderlands between Andor and Cairhien.

Is this some clue that the (current) Seanchan royal family is not really descendant from Hawkwing? That long ago another family usurped the throne or Luthair's descendents died out, and they are pretending otherwise? Just another secret at the heart of the Seanchan empire, I think.

By the way, I'm rereading TGS and I can't get through any of hers or Mat's chapters without wishing she would die die die. Mat deserves better. Aludra would be my preference from among the available choices.

[Poobah]

I kinda like Tuon.

[fionwe1987]

Tuon is described as black as one of the Sea Folk. Artur Hawkwing is white, is he not? He's from some little nation that used to exist in the present day borderlands between Andor and Cairhien.

Is this some clue that the (current) Seanchan royal family is not really descendant from Hawkwing? That long ago another family usurped the throne or Luthair's descendents died out, and they are pretending otherwise? Just another secret at the heart of the Seanchan empire, I think.

By the way, I'm rereading TGS and I can't get through any of hers or Mat's chapters without wishing she would die die die. Mat deserves better. Aludra would be my preference from among the available choices.

I think there is a mention somewhere that Luthair was dark. Maybe Hawkwing's wife was dark skinned? Or one of the descendants of Luthair married someone of dark skin.

Anyway, all the symbolism surrounding Tuon very strongly points to her being the descendant of Hawkwing. The same is the case for Berelain, of course.

ETA: Agree with Poobah. I like Tuon too. Obviously, she's not the chummy type. But the fact is that she is a rational person, and in a genre filled with irrational nobility, she's one of the few who makes sense and actually seems like ruler material.

[Werthead]

Path of Daggers ebook cover art.

Pretty shite, it has to be said. The first time the ebook art is inferior to the Sweet original (despite FANCY RAND! on the original front cover)?

[aidan]

Really? Sweet's work on PoD was some of the best he did for the series, but I really like Bell's use of colour on the eBook edition.