NBA Off-season

[Swordfish]

reviled? was he ever? i think most people thought he was just plain crazy. and still do.

A lot of people didn't want him to ever play in the league again. I was one of them.

I would say that sentiment has.... waned... somewhat, wouldn't you?

ETA: Either way, you're talking about semantics at this point, which is not a road down which I'm particularly interested in traveling.

If you really don't think his image and marketability have improved, we'll just have to disagree on that.

[Relic]

A lot of people didn't want him to ever play in the league again. I was one of them.

I would say that sentiment has.... waned... somewhat, wouldn't you?

I s'pose so. I didn't encounter many people who thought he should never play again tho. Also, everything wanes over time. Not sure what it has to do with him winning a title, except in LA. How is Artest welcomed in Detroit or Indiana?

[aeu]

you know what other two events reside on different planets?

Rape and holding press conferences.

Whatever. This has nothing to do with the point I'm making. I really can't repeat it.

it has everything to do with the fact that winning rehabilitates players images.

As i believe I've mentioned.

Several times.

Yeah, we all get that. It's just not the good or relevant example you think it is.

Who has ever denied that winning rehabilites players' images? Kobe is proof positive, as I keep pointing out. That's hardly the debate.

So Ron Artest managed to go on Jimmy Kimmel. I congratulate him on his big accomplishment. Still, this tells us virtually nothing about the case of LeBron with his current standing (which is unique, really), his aspirations and whether or not they are still feasible.

Either way, we're just re-treading the same ground at this point.

Yeah, no kiddin...

[Slurktan]

wtf?

That's what the Woj is reporting on Yahoo sports. It's kind of a bizarre deal on both ends unless Dallas is going to move Chandler again. Charlotte gets significantly worse, still doesn't have a PG, but gets a little cap relief. Dallas just went and signed Haywood to big money so I'd guess they have to be moving Chandler again.

[Swordfish]

I s'pose so. I didn't encounter many people who thought he should never play again tho. Also, everything wanes over time.

Which is pretty much the point, yes?

Particularly when accompanied by winning.

[Relic]

Which is pretty much the point, yes?

Particularly when accompanied by winning.

I have no idea what your point is. I also have no idea how Artest compares to Lebron.

Anyway, the Dallas/Bobcats trade made no sense till i was reminded that Charlotte can use Dampier's non guaranteed contract as trade bait for something else. Which is better than trading two big guys straight up for Calderon, imo.

[Slurktan]

Not sure interesting this news is to everyone else but I liked it. Anyways Chris Bosh was on the Fan 590 (Toronto sports radio) today and he was actually pretty candid about some stuff that happened in the last couple weeks. For instance he said flat out that the report that LeBron tried to get him to come to Cleveland was completely false and that a lot of the other stuff that came out about Bosh in particular in the media was him goofing around.

[aeu]

For instance he said flat out that the report that LeBron tried to get him to come to Cleveland was completely false

Makes sense. It just didn't fit with everything else going on.

Weird trade between Dallas and Charlotte.

Dallas just went and signed Haywood to big money so I'd guess they have to be moving Chandler again.

Anyway, the Dallas/Bobcats trade made no sense till i was reminded that Charlotte can use Dampier's non guaranteed contract as trade bait for something else.

These both make sense, but if true, it means that they just swapped centers so that they each can trade them again. There must be an easier way to go about things...

[Jaxom 1974]

Not sure interesting this news is to everyone else but I liked it. Anyways Chris Bosh was on the Fan 590 (Toronto sports radio) today and he was actually pretty candid about some stuff that happened in the last couple weeks. For instance he said flat out that the report that LeBron tried to get him to come to Cleveland was completely false and that a lot of the other stuff that came out about Bosh in particular in the media was him goofing around.

So Bosh is the Keyser Soze of the NBA...? :P

[ztemhead]

That's not true, Kal. It's impossible to bring up Favre purely based on his considerable football gifts anymore. Infact he's most often brought up as a punchline rather than a 40 year old QB who absolutely dominated the league. Everything about the guy now has selfish undertones, even his consecutive start streak. It's just part of the Favre narrative now. You can't talk about him without talking about the indecisiveness or selfish, bullshit machinations.

I'd draw a sharp demarcation here between "what football geeks think" and "what the mass of casual fans think." If you have a paid subscription to ESPN (or any other sports site) you probably think Favre is a dick. If you catch the occasional game on Sunday, you're most likely in awe of his superhuman toughness.

[add-on]

LeBron James is an international superstar. He's been one arguably since he was 16 years old. For him, going to Miami to play with Bosh and Wade isn't about winning a ring (though that is part of it), it's not about playing in a big market city. It's about finally having peers. This is a guy who has been held on a pedestal for almost half of his life. Wade and Bosh are both guys who are on his level, guys who know a little bit of what he's gone through.

I just want to take this moment to highlight a point that both Bill Simmons and Slurktan have been making for quite a while now: Chris Bosh is not on LeBron's level. In fact, we're not really sure what level he's on. What we know is that his offensive skills don't make up for his negative leadership and defensive skills.

Really though, just read the last eighty-five Slurktan posts about Bosh. Shit could get ugly.

I just want folks to acknowledge that he's abandoned the pursuit of greatness.

Acknowledged.

One school of thought is that he tanked the series intentionally because it would have been too hard to explain why he was leaving a team that had just won a title. In other words, he wanted to lose. Personally, I think otherwise, for the most part. He was on an emotional roller-coaster because he knew he planned on leaving, was frustrated that he had to carry the team, and so tried to prove a point by showing what would happen if he didn't carry the load. Whatever the reason, the self-described leader of the team intentionally gave less than his best effort, and didn't seem to care when his team lost. The man certainly has a right to go to another team, but tanking the most important playoff series in the franchise's history for whatever reason is inexcusable.

I think the bolded part is all we need to know about LeBron.

I would think the similarity is self evident.

The guy was practically ridden out of the league after the brawl, now he's in demand. His reputation took a MUCH bigger hit than LBJ.

It speaks directly to this whole 'he's a villain and his career is doomed' nonsense.

Winning counters all this hype about what a dick he is, and it does it almost overnight.

You're right. It won't be forgotten.

It'll just be mostly irrelevant to his popularity and earning potential.

1) People never really thought of Artest as a huge dick as much as they thought of him as a crazy man. Pretty much everyone acknowledged that he went into the stands because he was provoked by a thrown beer. That doesn't mean he's a jerk who goes after fans for no reason, it means he exercises poor judgment when deciding what douchebag fans deserve.

2) His reputation didn't really take a hit. People always thought Artest was crazy. He just got more chances (for less money) because of his particular skill set (elite wing defender with the body type to match up against Anthony, James, Pierce).

3) Winning didn't counter anything. People still think Artest is crazy. People also still think Kobe is a dick. Winning has forced people into respecting them for their talents.

LeBron James clearly wanted to be loved. That's out of reach. It just is.

I think for most fans, LeBron will be mostly liked. People don't remember how much of a douchebag MJ was, for instance. Heck, I had a hard time remembering why people shouldn't like Ron Artest, other than him having personality issues; I had forgotten completely about the brawl.

Revisionist history. Sports journalism wasn't invasive enough for us to know how much of a douchebag MJ was. All we knew was that he was the ultimate competitor with a huge gambling problem. Gambling problem? Whatever, we all like playing poker. In any case, it's a poor comparison.

It'll be a local thing, much like the "Clemens is the antichrist" deal. Boston folks hate him. Do most others? Do most people even care?

It simply can't be a local thing. He strung three big sports cities along and made his 'Decision' on a poorly executed nationally televised event. You just can't hide from this shit.

Heck, all he did was leave his starting city.

Oh my fucking god. That's not all he did. Numerous posts in this thread have explained that point. Not what, how. It's an old principle, easy to grasp.

How is Ron Artest in demand now? In demand by who? You seem to be confusing two things here.

Agreed. Artest's big game performances in the post season seem to have given some people the wrong ideas. Everyone in the league knows his role is limited to being a defensive stopper against three guys. Everyone knows his career is done after his current contract.

And let's not lose perspective here.

Never.

Artest assaulted a fan.

Because fuckheads from Detroit doused him with beer. I'd have punched that guy.

Kobe was accused of rape.

For a number of reasons, including this one, Kobe has been disliked by many NBA fans for a number of years.

RE: his popularity/jersey sales despite his obvious shortcomings

see: not only the LA Lakers being one of the most popular NBA franchises in the league's history, but also the popularity on this board of characters like Kellhus and Thomas Covenant. People like anti-heroes.

I don't see LeBron's situation as the same because there's too much of "i'm a narcissistic moron", and not enough of "i'm an egomaniacal competitor who will stop at nothing to be best at what i do."

I think they think that he nearly led a team to the superbowl at age 40, and that most people are still huge Favre fans - and only Green Bay thinks he's a douche. Hell, with that indecisive Favre ad campaign, he showed that he can laugh at himself. I think that his legacy isn't really marred at all, and most of his fans haven't changed.

That year people hated him - for a while. They stopped hating him when he was out there kicking ass. Even Minnesota fans who were all "OMG, this is horrible" in July stopped that in October.

Really? Because I kept hating him. I feel like everyone did, but a lot of people developed a begrudging respect based on his performance. Nothing more. Nothing erased that he left a tiny market team that loved him for its rival.

lol...sour grapes there in Utah. :P

In AE's defense, she's been talking shit about Carlos Boozer for the past 2-3 years. I don't think I'd call that sour grapes.

LeBron, as good as a player he is, always had an image that far exceeded his accomplishments.

I just want to point out, again, that I've been saying this the whole goddamn time.

He also said, and I quote: "The performance was fine. His honesty and his integrity, I think, shined through."

Yeah, he is talking about LeBron. :lol:

There goes David Stern. Trying desperately to save face for his biggest money maker.

Weird trade between Dallas and Charlotte.

These both make sense, but if true, it means that they just swapped centers so that they each can trade them again. There must be an easier way to go about things...

I dunno, I think Haywood+Chandler coming off the bench might give them the elite frontcourt defense they've been looking for for so long.

On the other hand, I think Chandler's expiring contract might be more attractive to teams with elite wingers given that he still might have something left in his tank (compared to Dampier). So it makes sense for Dallas that way.

As far as the future of the Bulls go, I'm much more optimistic than I was. I am starting to come around on Boozer a little bit. If he stays healthy, he'll be a great pick 'n' roll partner for Derrick Rose. There's also the hope that Noah will provide him with the defensive assurance that he never got in Utah.

Korver is a good pick up for the Bulls. We needed shooting and now we've got it. Reddick would be another welcome addition. I doubt the Magic will let him go, but it would be nice if they did. Failing that, I hope the Bulls pass on Josh Howard and Shannon Brown and go after Rudy Fernandez via trade.

[add-on]

Big Z is going to Miami too. So if I have this right, Miami has the following on their roster now:

Lebron

Wade

Bosh

Chalmers

Miller (is that official?)

Haslem

Ilgauskus

Yes, I'm pretty sure that the Miller signing is official. And as far as I'm concerned, it's the only positive addition to the Trio that Riley has made. His ability to spot up and hit the three will be a huge asset to the team.

However, using money to lock up Haslem seems like a good PR move, but a foolish basketball move. The one thing the Heat are lacking right now is a post defender. Haslem is 6'7". Gasol, Howard, et al will eat him alive. The same goes for the Big Z signing. He's been absolutely awful on defense for the past few years. He's one of the big reasons the Cavs lost to the Magic in the '09 Playoffs. Picking him up probably makes LeBron feel good, but it's terrible for the championship aspirations.

I have to admit that I've seen very little of Al Jefferson. I haven't watched a game involving the T-Wolves in as long as I can remember, but I feel like there's still a school of thought out there that this guy is an all-star. This could be a really nice pickup for Utah in the wake of losing Boozer.

He's sort of the same, but with less mobility. It's a nice sop for Jazz fans and Deron Williams, but I'm not really sure what it does for them re getting past the Lakers bigs.

[Slurktan]

Really? Because I kept hating him. I feel like everyone did, but a lot of people developed a begrudging respect based on his performance. Nothing more. Nothing erased that he left a tiny market team that loved him for its rival.

Not to derail the thread especially since I brought up that particular comparison but thats really not how the Favre thing went down then or now IMO.

It was more of Favre saying "I fucking hate working at my craft and just like playing games, I don't think I want to play anymore." Then Ted Thompson going "OK we got this other guy who is good to go so sweet." Then Favre getting the itch near training camp and saying "Ok I'm good to go forget what I said earlier." Then Teddy responded with "Fuck that, this new dude is better than you, you are done, fuck off." Then Favre saying, "I'm done? Trade me to the Vikings and put your money where your mouth is douchebag." Then Thompson saying "Pot calling the kettle black huh? How's about the Jets then and I'll make sure they can't even think of trading you to the Vikings. Ha! I own you!" Then Favre going, "Oh well I'll play a year then retire so the JEts release me. Then bam! Minnesota here I come." Then Thompson saying, "Uh what? Noooo". Then Favre saying, " I own you mother fucker I am going to burn your house down and salt the earth!"

In case you can't tell, while I think Favre is a douche I am 100% in his corner vs. the Packers/Ted Thompson. Completely different leaving situation from LeBron and the residual hate against Favre IMO is more for his douchiness with the fake retirements and the constant ESPN feed to Ed Warner on his front lawn.

[add-on]

It was more of Favre saying "I fucking hate working at my craft and just like playing games, I don't think I want to play anymore." Then Ted Thompson going "OK we got this other guy who is good to go so sweet." Then Favre getting the itch near training camp and saying "Ok I'm good to go forget what I said earlier." Then Teddy responded with "Fuck that, this new dude is better than you, you are done, fuck off." Then Favre saying, "I'm done? Trade me to the Vikings and put your money where your mouth is douchebag." Then Thompson saying "Pot calling the kettle black huh? How's about the Jets then and I'll make sure they can't even think of trading you to the Vikings. Ha! I own you!" Then Favre going, "Oh well I'll play a year then retire so the JEts release me. Then bam! Minnesota here I come." Then Thompson saying, "Uh what? Noooo". Then Favre saying, " I own you mother fucker I am going to burn your house down and salt the earth!"

el-oh-el. Well done.

In case you can't tell, while I think Favre is a douche I am 100% in his corner vs. the Packers/Ted Thompson. Completely different leaving situation from LeBron and the residual hate against Favre IMO is more for his douchiness with the fake retirements and the constant ESPN feed to Ed Warner on his front lawn.

You're right, the situation is different. However, I still hold that Favre's impressive season didn't rehabilitate his image with neutral fans.

[Rhom]

As a corollary to the LBJ discussion, I've been thinking more and more about Michael Jordan. The consensus is obviously that he is the greatest player to ever lace 'em up to play Naismith's game. But when was that consensus reached?

I was 13 years old when Chicago won their first title. Jordan was the only athlete I had on a poster in my room and I had already been wearing his shoes for a couple of years. To my early teenage brain, he was already the greatest player ever. But I also remember the Sports Illustrated cover that said "Finally" with his picture on it. In retrospect, I'm sure that the adult me would have still considered Russell, Kareem, Magic, and maybe some others as still having the better resume for the GOAT title at that point in his career.

So when was it "official?" After he won twice? After a threepeat when he walked away from the game? Was it after he returned and lead his team to the best record in NBA history? Surely it didn't take the fifth or sixth title to get it done.

[Jaxom 1974]

Big Z is going to Miami too. So if I have this right, Miami has the following on their roster now:

So that's Carlos Zambrano's issue...he wanted to play basketball... :P

As a corollary to the LBJ discussion, I've been thinking more and more about Michael Jordan. The consensus is obviously that he is the greatest player to ever lace 'em up to play Naismith's game. But when was that consensus reached?

I was 13 years old when Chicago won their first title. Jordan was the only athlete I had on a poster in my room and I had already been wearing his shoes for a couple of years. To my early teenage brain, he was already the greatest player ever. But I also remember the Sports Illustrated cover that said "Finally" with his picture on it. In retrospect, I'm sure that the adult me would have still considered Russell, Kareem, Magic, and maybe some others as still having the better resume for the GOAT title at that point in his career.

So when was it "official?" After he won twice? After a threepeat when he walked away from the game? Was it after he returned and lead his team to the best record in NBA history? Surely it didn't take the fifth or sixth title to get it done.

Hmmmmmm...it's a good question. I gotta think, that in Chicago we knew he was the greatest by the time the first three-peat was completed, but it was the second one, his run after his bout of hubris sent him to baseball for two seasons, that cemented the reputation nationally and across the globe. It simply added to the mystique...It's hard to argue that, if he hadn't gone to play AA baseball those two seasons, those Bulls teams of the 90s wouldn't have gone 8 straight...

[Maithanet]

Hmmmmmm...it's a good question. I gotta think, that in Chicago we knew he was the greatest by the time the first three-peat was completed, but it was the second one, his run after his bout of hubris sent him to baseball for two seasons, that cemented the reputation nationally and across the globe. It simply added to the mystique...It's hard to argue that, if he hadn't gone to play AA baseball those two seasons, those Bulls teams of the 90s wouldn't have gone 8 straight...

Well, the people in Chicago might have agreed that he was the greatest ever, but that doesn't make it so. If you ask a bunch of Lions fans who the greatest running back of all time is, you know who they're gonna pick.

I think it was when he came back to basketball and immediately changed the NBA landscape. Once he was back, it was the Bulls, and everyone else. When he made that fourth championship a reality, he showed that he could just turn it on, and the greatest basketball players of his generation were just left watching.

I would also disagree that the Bulls would have won eight straight. They obviously had the talent, and Jordan was a fantastic motivator (he simply didn't tolerate complacency or half-efforts). But even still, to expect that team to stay focused and happy for eight straight years, never tasting (real) defeat...I don't think it's possible. I think they would have either had an injury destroy one year, some key person would get unhappy and leave for somewhere more lucrative/warmer or complacency would just get the better of them.

After all, that is exactly what did happen (one key person leaving for something he believed to be better). Saying that if Jordan didn't leave when he did would have resulted in an additional 5 straight championships...is a huge stretch, IMO.

[Jaxom 1974]

For the record: I'm not absolutely sure they'd've won eight straight either. I think there's an argument there though. One of those great "What If" debates that permeates sports...

[Jaime L]

So when was it "official?" After he won twice? After a threepeat when he walked away from the game? Was it after he returned and lead his team to the best record in NBA history? Surely it didn't take the fifth or sixth title to get it done.

Agree with Maith, it required that fourth title, 1996, when the Bulls went 72-10 and made a case for being the greatest team ever. The first threepeat represented dominance, but it wasn't unprecedented. To come back from a two year hiatus and impose his will to an even greater extent on the league, that was a virtuoso performance.

I would also disagree that the Bulls would have won eight straight. They obviously had the talent, and Jordan was a fantastic motivator (he simply didn't tolerate complacency or half-efforts). But even still, to expect that team to stay focused and happy for eight straight years, never tasting (real) defeat...I don't think it's possible. I think they would have either had an injury destroy one year, some key person would get unhappy and leave for somewhere more lucrative/warmer or complacency would just get the better of them.

Hard to say. Depends on if you believe the conspiracy theories surrounding his first retirement or not. But Jordan was a sociopathic competitor. He's maybe the only guy in sports I think capable of imposing his will on his teammates and the league for an unbroken 8 year span. If a team rises up like Seattle did in 1996, that's the impetus for him to work himself and his team that much harder and smack down the pretender.

The other part is: who beats 'em? Think the only team you can make a case for is Houston. Just so weird how they only made the finals in the two years Jordan was gone or at half strength. It's like they were ducking the Bulls.

[Relic]

The other part is: who beats 'em? Think the only team you can make a case for is Houston.

Screw you. The Knicks.

Anyway, would have been nice to see a Bulls/Rockets finals back then.