NBA Off-season

[Arakasi]

Oh god the bashing on LBJ is pathetic. How soon ago was it people were accusing Kobe of quitting on his team, and now he's held up as the epitome of a winner. James just doesn't care about fame like you guys think he does. He doesn't want to be Jordan, if you hadn't figured that out by now. What he does want to do is win championships and play for a fun team with his friends. It is clear that him, Wade and Bosh have close ties. The rumors I heard this morning are them taking less to get Mike Miller in there, who would give them some good ranged shooting. They drafted 2 young centers, they can sign 1-2 more at league minimum. They'll be just fine. Maybe they won't win this coming year, but they'll win at least 2 over the next 5 or 6.

Cleveland did an awful job in supporting James. LBJ didn't orchestrate how that team was built, no matter if he "approved" those trades. The Cavs constantly shafted their long term prospects on winning it all in the current year. Their team is old, devoid of top talent, and has one talented youngster in Hickson. Not to mention they had a coach for most of that time who was incompetent. NY didn't have the pieces. So that left Chicago I guess, and when it came down to it James would rather be with his buds in Miami then play in Jordan's city. Not a huge deal.

Edit: Plus Gilbert came across as a looney. Sure it was silly to have this show, but then again I feel LBJ originally had planned to go back to Cleveland. But Bosh not accepting a sign and trade with the Cavs forced his hand.

[Jaxom 1974]

While my ire has certainly been raised against LeBron along with everyone else's, personally I don't see Wade as a villain here. He stayed with his team, supposedly left money on the table to do so, and convinced two other stars to join him. Isn't that what any fan base would want from their best player?

I think there's been quite a few people saying that it was Wade pulling the strings, but I think it would be funnier if Bosh turned out to be the Keyser Soze of the group...

And something else that pains me a lot over this: LBJ's decision really does validate a lot of what Skip Bayliss has been chirping about the guy for years and I hate having to agree with that douche... :P

He doesn't want to be Jordan, if you hadn't figured that out by now. What he does want to do is win championships and play for a fun team with his friends. It is clear that him, Wade and Bosh have close ties.

You know, that's fine. If he'd rather be Scottie Pippin instead of Michael Jordan, so be it. Let's just not let him call himself the King anymore. The King wants the ball at the end of the game, LBJ obviously doesn't.

[Relic]

Oh god the bashing on LBJ is pathetic.

That's Lebron's doing. The backlash is usually as strong as the build up. He didn't have to feed into the already ridiculous sideshow that this FA season had become.

Im disgusted with Lebron but im reserving my anger for Donnie Walsh and James Dolan.

[Jaime L]

The horrible narcissism of "The Decision" is bad enough, but by pretending that his mind wasn't already made up, he essentially froze the Cavs' hand this offseason. They had the opportunity to buy a lottery pick in the first round with cash and assets, but held off because they wanted to save those assets for a deal that might keep LBJ. This farce of a free agency essentially delayed their ability to rebuild/reload for a full year.

Exactly right.

Just listened to a nauseating interview with Stuart Scott on Mike and Mike where he blasted Dan Gilbert's letter saying that Lebron left for all the right reasons and that Gilbert's blow up kinda gives a window into what the guy was like these past few years so no wonder Lebron left.

First of all, Studog, Lebron absolutely screwed the Cavs (for all the reasons listed above) by not communicating with them at all through the process to keep it a "mystery" so he could have his moment of triumphant narcissism on national TV. But that's alright because it's for charity, right?

Second, I'm pretty sure most fans acrossed the country loved Gilbert's rant. At least those who don't feel like they have to kiss Lebron's ass in the future to be able to continue to get access. But hey Studog, even though it makes you sound incredibly out of touch, at least Lebron said last night he'd coach you for your next one on one game with Obama, which I'm sure all of America was dying to know.

What he does want to do is win championships and play for a fun team with his friends. It is clear that him, Wade and Bosh have close ties.

Hey, great for him. We're all incredibly happy for the guy. And doesn't matter who he fucks over in the process, right?

Arak, it's not that he went to Miami. It's how he went there. It's this absurd prima donna decision special. Beyond which, in case you missed the memo, we're fans. Do you expect us to just cheer for the pure narcissism on display last night because he's going to play with his buddies? Fans don't give a shit about that. Even those without a dog in the fight, approach this from a fan's perspective and are generally incredibly turned off by the whole thing.

Also if he doesn't want to be Jordan, maybe he should drop the King James nickname? If he wants to be just another good player on a good team, maybe he shouldn't host a primetime special to announce this. Are you really defending his right to have his cake and eat it too?

One last thing: are you defending quitting in sports? That it was okay Kobe did it that one year because he's won two championships since? Most people who pay attention to the sport still loath the guy for that.

[Arakasi]

Couple things:

1) I don't think LBJ gave up on Cleveland until Bosh turned down the side and trade offer. I think that when LBJ announced this special idea he was still thinking of going back to Cleveland.

2) I don't think he made up his own nickname. He can't really control what people call him. You think Strasbourg will be able to control what the media refers to him in baseball? Or not seize upon the marketing and money making opportunities it opens up for him?

3) I think it's pretty split on the Gilbert rant, from what I'm reading elsewhere. As well among the people who do really matter to the Cavs (aka other NBA players) Gilbert's rant comes off as harmful to his team.

4) I don't care much about the media special. I'm sure it would have been a gongshow anyway. Maybe out of it some good money got funneled towards a good charity. Perhaps it would have been best if this was all low key, but that wasn't going to happen.

5) Well I don't think LBJ really quit to the level that Kobe did in the Suns series a few years ago. He was injured and the team was going down regardless of what he did. Like KG said to him, loyalty only goes so far. Regardless after a couple titles really no one ever talks about Kobe in that way anymore. Well other then the minority of Kobe haters.

From all acounts LBJ tried to make things work in Cleveland. Not his fault that the shitty GM built a crap team and left it in the hands of a shitty coach who pissed away the opportunities James gave them.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Jaime, you're exactly right. It wasn't that he left -- it was how he left.

No player should be morally bound to play his entire career for the team that drafted him, regardless of where he was born. And I completely get a guy wanting to play with one of his friends, particularly if it increases his chances of winning a title.

But the circus he created around the whole process, wanting has ass-kissed by all those teams when he's already decided, etc. That's just weak and inexcusable.

[Jaime L]

Couple things:

1) I don't think LBJ gave up on Cleveland until Bosh turned down the side and trade offer. I think that when LBJ announced this special idea he was still thinking of going back to Cleveland.

Maybe. This would mollify my opinion of him somewhat.

Then again the three were talking about this all the way back to the Olympics. They set up their contracts to expire at the same time precisely for this reason. Don't think we know the truth from the hype, but it's possible they've been considering this exact scenario for years.

2) I don't think he made up his own nickname. He can't really control what people call him. You think Strasbourg will be able to control what the media refers to him in baseball? Or not seize upon the marketing and money making opportunities it opens up for him?

It's not like he's an innocent bystander in this whole thing. Of course he's embraced all of it. Think it's clear he loves being called The King or the best player in the NBA until people actually expect him to win a title.

5) Well I don't think LBJ really quit to the level that Kobe did in the Suns series a few years ago. He was injured and the team was going down regardless of what he did. Like KG said to him, loyalty only goes so far. Regardless after a couple titles really no one ever talks about Kobe in that way anymore. Well other then the minority of Kobe haters.

I agree his wasn't as blatant as Kobe. But that's like saying Sean Gilbert's contract holdout inspired by God telling him to holdout wasn't quite as embarrassing as Albert Haynesworth. These kind of distinctions feel apologetic to a fault.

And yes, people rarely mention it with Kobe anymore. But I think those who pay attention will always hold that against him when speaking of legacy. Because that's what this is about. What kind of competitor are you when things don't go your way? Both have quit on their teams...and Lebron ran away (Kobe only threatened to run away). It's why both will always have a "yeah, but" attached to them when we're comparing them to prior superstars.

ETA: It's funny because I always defended Lebron in the past because I felt like he was put in a tough position of being forced to carry an untalented team. And because I appreciated his often selfless style. But this whole escapade has caused my opinion of the guy to turn hard. Maybe it's cause it gives an inkling into what the guy is really about.

[Jaxom 1974]

Couple things:

1) I don't think LBJ gave up on Cleveland until Bosh turned down the side and trade offer. I think that when LBJ announced this special idea he was still thinking of going back to Cleveland.

This only works if these three hadn't been talking about playing together for the last couple years since the Olympics. Where they played should be immaterial if the three of them wanted to make beautiful championships together because they obviously believe that the three of them is all that is really needed.

Go back and look at some of the things that Bosh has tweeted over the last couple weeks. You gotta look hard, but between the lines, I think it's there that Miami was the decision on where they were all going to go for quite a long time. That's what rankles. They've all played the fans and these teams. It's there perogative to go where they want, but they could have had some more class about it.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Jaime, you're exactly right. It wasn't that he left -- it was how he left.

No player should be morally bound to play his entire career for the team that drafted him, regardless of where he was born. And I completely get a guy wanting to play with one of his friends, particularly if it increases his chances of winning a title.

But the circus he created around the whole process, wanting his ass-kissed by all those teams when he'd already decided, etc. That's just weak and inexcusable.

[awesome possum]

Come on, how is James being a narcissistic primadonna surprising to anyone? He earned a multi-million dollar endorsement deal at age 18. He was dubbed "King James" before he even played a single second in the NBA. He has "Chosen 1" tattooed on his back! Like all insanely rich superstars, he has a huge circle of people around him who constantly tell him he's the greatest thing ever.

The only thing he doesn't have is a championship and Jordan's legacy, which most talking heads all but guaranteed he would have by the time his career is over. He's given up on the latter (as evidenced by changing his jersey number to 6) but not the former.

I don't blame him for wanting to go play with friends, where he thinks it will be easiest to win a championship. I do blame him for being a giant douchenozzle about the whole ordeal. It's fairly evident that he knew he was going to Miami from the get-go but he absolutely took a shit on his fans and city in leaving. There's nothing to respect in that.

[aeu]

2) I don't think he made up his own nickname. He can't really control what people call him.

Well, I've heard him refer to himself in third person, as King James, so he can start by not doing that anymore. :P

Couple things:

1) I don't think LBJ gave up on Cleveland until Bosh turned down the side and trade offer.

From all acounts LBJ tried to make things work in Cleveland.

Here's my guess: That whole "LeBron tried hard to convince Bosh to come to the Cavs (with Bosh making the absolute maximum money he can make in the prosses) but Bosh just wouldn't do it" narrative is grossly exagerated, if not complete BS. That was ESPN and Broussard passing along stuff from LeBron's camp. Other people had issues with those reports. I don't know if we will ever learn what exactly went down, but I can definitely see LeBron's people feeding that crap as an exit strategy.

Gilbert's rant(s) are petty and immature, but there are nuggets of truth in them. He said LeBron didn't return a single phone call or text since the free agency began. It doesn't fit well with this image of LeBron working hard to put together a S&T for Bosh.

[AutumnEvenings]

This makes me sad.

I fucking hate Kobe, and I really was hoping that LeBron would be the true anti-Kobe, and next Jordan, etc. I liked him. I defended him with lines like, "well, yeah, he's a little arrogant, but he's really, really good, and has been since he was like 5. You can't blame him for that. He's still an all-around decent guy and he tries really hard and plays out of love of the game, and he works hard with his teammates and I just love watching him play. Unlike, say, Kobe, the rapist quitter asshole." So I guess at least he's not a rapist, but that's hardly an endorsement. *sigh*

I agree that it's not the what but the how. But how really matters to me, as a fan. (And yes, I'm a fan of other players and other teams besides my beloved Jazz.) I won't write him off entirely, but he really comes out of this looking bad. And I don't want to hear all the horrible things the Cavs kept under wraps. I liked my ignorance!

I don't fault Wade at all, here, by the way. He stuck with his team, even though they're in the same division as Orlando and Atlanta, two very competitive teams. Chicago has...Cleveland, which without LeBron, is nothing. (Same goes for if they'd gone to Cleveland, there's no one to challenge them in their division.) They would have had an automatic Top 4 spot, right there. I think Miami will trounce Atlanta, but Orlando will be their competition, no doubt. Even when they're not playing each other, Orlando can get a really good record. It won't be a cake-walk to a division title. So yeah, I guess I'll be rooting for Wade, but not LeBron. (Indifferent to Bosh.)

-------

In unrelated news, my Jazz are looking to resign Brewer. Which I both love and hate. WTF is our front office thinking, trading him for nothing and now hoping to win back his good graces? We do need another 2 though, and I love Brewer (say what you will), so I hope it works. It might make our team's chemistry better too, since he was loved all around and his trade was demoralizing for many of the younger players (Deron, Miles, and Price especially).

[Jaxom 1974]

Come on, how is James being a narcissistic primadonna surprising to anyone? He earned a multi-million dollar endorsement deal at age 18. He was dubbed "King James" before he even played a single second in the NBA. He has "Chosen 1" tattooed on his back! Like all insanely rich superstars, he has a huge circle of people around him who constantly tell him he's the greatest thing ever.

The only thing he doesn't have is a championship and Jordan's legacy, which most talking heads all but guaranteed he would have by the time his career is over. He's given up on the latter (as evidenced by changing his jersey number to 6) but not the former.

I don't blame him for wanting to go play with friends, where he thinks it will be easiest to win a championship. I do blame him for being a giant douchenozzle about the whole ordeal. It's fairly evident that he knew he was going to Miami from the get-go but he absolutely took a shit on his fans and city in leaving. There's nothing to respect in that.

How much sadder is it that a 25 year old who is arguably the best talent playing the game today is already approaching his tries at a championship like a 35 year old Karl Malone...

[AutumnEvenings]

How much sadder is it that a 25 year old who is arguably the best talent playing the game today is already approaching his tries at a championship like a 35 year old Karl Malone...

Malone was 40 when he went to the Lakers, after Stockton retired.

Before that, his tries at a championship all involved working with the Jazz, taking pay cuts, negotiating deals, trying to bring over a big man, etc. So, not even a 35-year-old Malone, but a 40-year-old. And while I'm superbiased and think Malone was the greatest power foward of all time, LBJ's better (but not a PF :P).

[Jaime L]

That whole "LeBron tried hard to convince Bosh to come to the Cavs (with Bosh making the absolute maximum money he can make in the prosses) but Bosh just wouldn't do it" narrative is grossly exagerated, if not complete BS. That was ESPN and Broussard passing along stuff from LeBron's camp.

This is the other thing that's fanned my disdain at the whole thing. The way ESPN guys shill for him whorishly in return for access. I know this happens all the time across all sports (Favre apologizers have turned most everyone off) but it felt particularly egregious the last few days ever since ESPN got word of this.

I had the misfortune to listen to a radio interview with the sycophantic Jim Gray two nights ago, followed by Stuart Scott kiss up to Lebron for a better part of an hour last night, and then blast everyone who had a problem with it this morning on Mike and Mike. And then you got Broussard and Stephen A. with their sources and the lack of objectivity that results. Think fans in general react badly when they feel like they're being spoonfed how they should feel by this giant propaganda machine. The whole scripted wrap up with the University of Phoenix and Lebron giving charity to the Boys and Girls Club felt particularly clumsy. Who was behind that production - Kim Jong Il?

[Jaxom 1974]

Malone was 40 when he went to the Lakers, after Stockton retired.

Before that, his tries at a championship all involved working with the Jazz, taking pay cuts, negotiating deals, trying to bring over a big man, etc. So, not even a 35-year-old Malone, but a 40-year-old. And while I'm superbiased and think Malone was the greatest power foward of all time, LBJ's better (but not a PF :P).

Ah. True. The point stands however. Malone was great, but it just didn't happen in Utah, despite their best efforts (Go Bulls!)...so in the twilight of his career, Malone did what he had to, attach himself to other players who could carry the load and actually do the heavy lifting.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Here's my guess: That whole "LeBron tried hard to convince Bosh to come to the Cavs (with Bosh making the absolute maximum money he can make in the prosses) but Bosh just wouldn't do it" narrative is grossly exagerated, if not complete BS. That was ESPN and Broussard passing along stuff from LeBron's camp. Other people had issues with those reports. I don't know if we will ever learn what exactly went down, but I can definitely see LeBron's people feeding that crap as an exit strategy.

I agree. I don't think that ever happened, and it was just part of the script.

LBJ's comments after the Boston series were strange, and significant because of that strangeness. When asked what he was going to do next, he said "me and my team have a plan, and we're going to execute it." And he didn't mean "team" in terms of the Cavs. He meant it in terms of his agent and hangers-on. Never really said a word about his performance other than to say that fans were "spoiled" by how good he was and that he was entitled to a bad game.

Well, they executed that plan. It was this whole charade, the claims that other teams were all in it, and then the attempt to get Bosh to come to Cleveland. Bosh and Wade going to Chicago together, Wade talking about how his kids would be a major part of the decision (going through a custody fight and his kids live in Chicago.). All part of the script to make it appear that this whole result wasn't predetermined before FA began.

But they were just too amateurish to pull it off. When LBJ was asked in the interview last night how long this had been planned for, he just smirked and dodged the question. Bosh has been about as subtle as Gregor Clegane.

It was all part of the script, and as the head screenwriter, LBJ deserves all the crap he's getting.

[Trebla]

yeah, I agree with much of what you guys are saying. I think he wants to win but more for image (to build his billion dollar empire) than for the sake of a championship.

Bird, Jordan, Magic...those guys were cutthroat players who wanted to destroy you. Especially Jordan. It was almost wanting to win to a fault. Jordan wanted to humiliate you. He had that killer need to win that lead him perhaps to gambling and infidelity. Constant need for competition. But in this day in age in sports you kind of need that to stay consistently elite. people will always want to bring you down and dog you. it's almost unbearable pressure.

You do now wonder at LeBron. Did he ever want the ball in the last seconds? Does he want that kind of pressure? Or dies he just want to win so he can get more endorsements? I don't know if this question will ever fade for me, even if he does win titles.

ETA: One writer agrees. I love how he opens the column.

Michael Rosenburg

GREENWICH, Conn., July 8, 1990 -- Michael Jordan announced on national television he's leaving Chicago to join the Detroit Pistons. Jordan said it was tough to bolt Chicago, where he was the most popular athlete in many years, because he thinks he has a better chance to win a championship if he plays with Pistons star Isiah Thomas. Jordan said by playing together, he and Thomas "won't have the pressure of going out and scoring 30 every night."

[Jaxom 1974]

yeah, I agree with much of what you guys are saying. I think he wants to win but more for image (to build his billion dollar empire) than for the sake of a championship.

Bird, Jordan, Magic...those guys were cutthroat players who wanted to destroy you. Especially Jordan. It was almost wanting to win to a fault. Jordan wanted to humiliate you. He had that killer need to win that lead him perhaps to gambling and infidelity. Constant need for competition. But in this day in age in sports you kind of need that to stay consistently elite. people will always want to bring you down and dog you. it's almost unbearable pressure.

You do now wonder at LeBron. Did he ever want the ball in the last seconds? Does he want that kind of pressure? Or dies he just want to win so he can get more endorsements? I don't know if this question will ever fade for me, even if he does win titles.

If I'm a major company looking to have a big star endorsing my product, I'm looking to the guy who's got the ball in his hand at the end of the game making the spectacular shots...not the guy passing him the ball. How's that gonna help James' "billion dollar empire"? To that respect, this whole process has been a gross miscalculation on the part of James and his people. But then again, he doens't have that killer instinct anyway, so I guess it works out for him.

[Ser Vlad]

Couple things:

1) I don't think LBJ gave up on Cleveland until Bosh turned down the side and trade offer. I think that when LBJ announced this special idea he was still thinking of going back to Cleveland.

Maybe; like Jaime said, we can't know. It doesn't matter at this point.

2) I don't think he made up his own nickname. He can't really control what people call him. You think Strasbourg will be able to control what the media refers to him in baseball? Or not seize upon the marketing and money making opportunities it opens up for him?

I would find this a little bit more believable if he didn't tatoo "Chosen One" on his back when he came into the NBA. Something makes me think someone who calls themselves "Chosen" isn't exactly saying, "I'm satisfied with being forgetten and not considered the best of my generation."

Not to mention saying this like 'spoiling' Cleveland with his play. That speaks to a sense of entitlement. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But evidence points to James wanting to be the GOAT.

3) I think it's pretty split on the Gilbert rant, from what I'm reading elsewhere. As well among the people who do really matter to the Cavs (aka other NBA players) Gilbert's rant comes off as harmful to his team.

Gilbert is a snake and a backstabber, and just lost 200 million with Lebron's decision. His rant is unprofesional and will hype some people up, and he's trying to deflect blame off him. Screw Gilbert. Doesn't change anything Lebron did.

4) I don't care much about the media special. I'm sure it would have been a gongshow anyway. Maybe out of it some good money got funneled towards a good charity. Perhaps it would have been best if this was all low key, but that wasn't going to happen.

Which goes right back to Lebron wanting to slobber himself as the GOAT, except he doesn't want to win like any of the other GOATs.

In the 80s, we had nothing but stacked teams. Magic/Kareem/Worthy etc.; Bird/McHale/Parish etc.; Malone/Dr.J & the 76ers; Dumars/Isiah & the Bad Boy Pistons. These teams were all stacked.

Jordan couldn't win in the 80s. It took him 7 years to get a ring. Did MJ ever get on his knees and beg to join Hakeem in Houston with Barkley, so he had a chance to win a ring? After 1990 playoffs, Pippen was a barely an above average role-player, there was no Rodman, and his team had been getting bounced by the Pistons. It didn't look like MJ was going to three-peat twice and rule the NBA.

Hakeem, Barkley and Jordan all came from the stellar 83 draft. Did they collude like Wade/Bosh/Lebron?

From all acounts LBJ tried to make things work in Cleveland. Not his fault that the shitty GM built a crap team and left it in the hands of a shitty coach who pissed away the opportunities James gave them.

Since 2006, Lebron had a 272-138 record (.663) and was 42-29 (.592) in the playoffs. These last two years, he had the best record in the NBA and won went a combined 127-37 (.774).

James had solid teams around him. He made the Finals once and was swept by Tim Duncan. Lebron is a loser and a coward.