Jim Butcher #2 SPOILERS!

[Maia]

Finished Ghost Story. Very enjoyable. I particularly liked how secondary characters were finally allowed to come into their own. Of course, the loophole in the end is kind of convenient, though not unexpected and a certain issue that had been hanging around for several books already is still unresolved... grind teeth.

OTOH, it also finally explains a few things that always seemed jarring, like why Harry so often had to go lone wolf and/or had to assemble a gang of unlikely allies to get stuff done, while higher-ups remained strangely passive. And it is a very satisfying explanation, IMHO, that thankfully eschews Gary Stueness that seemed to increasingly hover over Harry. Surprisingly well done.

[AverageGuy]

I found it kind of amusing how Butcher opens up the book apologizing for Ghost Story being a whole 3 months late.

Butcher actually was getting a lot of grief from some of his fans. I don't really care about delays anymore -- and that's not just due to Martin, Rothfuss and Lynch and a few others spring to mind -- but I guess people got spoiled by Butcher writing two books and a couple short stories per year like clockwork for the past few years.

And after reading, I can guess why it happened, too. Others in this thread have already mentioned the changes due to Harry's circumstances, so I don't need to list them, but Butcher probably had to stretch himself in different ways, which is probably a good thing for a writer.

Considering that he was in the graveyard(that was demonreach in the graveyard right?), I think that he has power over a lot more than just the island, even if that power is diminished.

I don't think it was Demonreach itself. Lea mentioned a proxy. Not quite sure what that means, but I do think it was an agent of Demonreach.

But pretty much without exception, Butcher's side characters really do make the stories that much better. And he seems able to churn out at least one really good one each book.

I know! I love his side characters, which is funny because I feel they were pretty two-dimensional in the early books.

And I hope Fitz ends up being Mort's apprentice. Actually I just want to see more of Fitz.

Was anyone actually surprised Maggie ended up with the Carpenters? I mean, it made the most sense. Obviously she can't live with Harry, but Forthill isn't an idiot. Why not keep her 1) close to her father, who can visit on a regular occasion and 2) in the house with a dozen guardian angels. No where is safer.

And I can't wait for more Demonreach. I hope Harry has the sense to move to the Island.

If Fitz doesn't become Morty's -- or even Harry's, there were a few mentions that Molly's about ready to move on -- apprentice, I'll be disappointed. Actually, I'm rooting for Harry's apprentice. One apprentice for the mind controllers, another for the necromancers.

I actually was surprised Maggie was with the Carpenters. It does make sense now that you've said that, but I thought she was going to disappear. That Molly told Harry she could take him to her made me do a double take.

And Harry has to move to Demonreach. Where else would he go? I guess he could move into his new old home instead, but it doesn't feel right.

Didn't Uri (heh @his umbrage about leaving out the -el part)

mention that Harry had met this particular fallen angel before? That implies lash.

Yeah, I'm thinking you're right. It may be someone else, though.

I dont have my book in front of me, but didnt Demonreach mention something about a parasite to Mab? Doesnt this sort of imply a child, I somehow doubt an immortal elemental being would understand children after all

I wondered if maybe a particularly new Red escaped the genocide spell. But it was probably just the tree. Unless it's Lash.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just finished. Now I'm really looking forward to Cold Days.

[alguien]

Finished it Friday night. Wow, that was a quick read for me.

Enjoyed it. Not as much as Changes, but still a very fun read. Liked what had been done to Molly's character, enjoyed how Murphy assembled a "Justice League" type group to deal with supernatural threats.

Enjoyed Mort, suprisingly, and liked how the stuff with Fitz and co. went down. (why does Harry think he seems familiar?)

I didn't quite remember who

Corpsetaker was, but then it hit me.

To be honest, I wasn't a huge fan of

who was behind Harry's murder. Harry calling his own hit? Even with the whispered Fallen voice that nudged him into that state of mind, that seemed off. Also, it had a vague whiff of retcon to me.

Still, despite that, enjoyed the book's resolution. The peak inside Molly's mind was hilarious.

I hope Bob's OK...

Also, I can't help but wonder if Karrin actually figured the whole thing out...

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

To be honest, I wasn't a huge fan of

who was behind Harry's murder. Harry calling his own hit? Even with the whispered Fallen voice that nudged him into that state of mind, that seemed off. Also, it had a vague whiff of retcon to me.

Funny, but that made so much sense to me that I was disappointed I didn't figure it out.

If you accept Harry's belief that Mab is basically evil, and that he'd be forced to serve her as Winter Knight, I could see him planning the hit to prevent himself from becoming a servant of evil. In essense, he was giving his life to save his daughters.

[alguien]

Funny, but that made so much sense to me that I was disappointed I didn't figure it out.

If you accept Harry's belief that Mab is basically evil, and that he'd be forced to serve her as Winter Knight, I could see him planning the hit to prevent himself from becoming a servant of evil. In essense, he was giving his life to save his daughters.

Yeah, I guess it wasn't completely out of character, but instead of

calling his own hit

I thought Harry would try something else to get out of it. Or at least giving Mab the speech he gave her at the end of this book--which was pure Dresden.

However, if you take into account that

the whispering fallen angel voice

really was the catalyst that drove Harry to despair, then in a sense, that's who the murderer was, albeit in a very subtle way.

Interestingly enough, from the way Toot-toot talked about the Winter Court in Changes, I got the sense that being a Knight of the Winter Court wasn't inherently evil.

[memmorio]

The books seem to get a bit too corny as they go from book to book. I love them don't get me wrong. But harry making so many attempted jokes about himself and things going on from the narrative side gets irritating. A bit too many convenient things happen as well. To be honest though I think these things only bothered me because I read it right after finishing ADWD. I did quite a giggle at his quote from the Empire Strikes Back though. Though I think Butcher is enjoying talking about copywritten materials a bit too much. Still though the book was fun and I look forward to an even darker book to come. Wish Thomas could go back to being a hairdresser though. Let him feed his Hunger while not going crazy all of the time.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

You know, this is marked as a spoiler thread. Do we have to keep marking discussions as "spoilers"? We should either let them fly in here, or start another "real" spoiler thread.

[Contrarius]

I got the sense that being a Knight of the Winter Court wasn't inherently evil.

I don't think it *is* inherently evil. In fact, IMHO Uriel (and by association the White God) **want** Harry to be the Winter Knight.

I just got through rereading Changes, which reminded me that an archangel spoke through Murphy at Chichen Itza, talking about how the Red Court had come to their judgment day. Not to mention the blazing white lights of the swords during the battle, and so on. So the White God was definitely in favor of wiping them out -- and the only way to have accomplished that was for Dresden to get a lot more power than he normally had. Then add to that Uriel's talk with Dresden while Dresden was lying in the church with his broken back, basically pushing Dresden into calling Mab. And then, in Ghost Story,

Dresden is basically coerced into going back to Earth. He coulda gone "on" or stayed in Chicagotory or gotten caught by the Southbound train instead, meaning he would never have gotten back to his body at all, but Uriel et al manipulated him into going back. And after Dresden's spirit goes through the whole rigmarole of figuring out that he killed himself, Uriel once again sends him back to Earth -- this time back to his physical body. And then, of course, reminds him about Free Will.

So I'm convinced that Winter Knight is exactly where the White God wants Harry to be.

Also, IMHO Vadderung also wants him to be there. He also gave Harry the exact info he needed to fight the Red Court, and he also knew that Harry would need a lot more power to fight them. Both of them pushed Harry into it.

[Contrarius]

You know, this is marked as a spoiler thread. Do we have to keep marking discussions as "spoilers"? We should either let them fly in here, or start another "real" spoiler thread.

I think it's polite to continue spoiler tagging the latest book, at least for a few weeks. I don't see any need to tag earlier books, though.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

About that bit of whispered "cheating"

Exactly what conduct did the whisperer induce? As I read it, the whispers weren't directly suggesting that Harry off himself. Rather, it was inducing him to save his daughter because it was his fault she was in that situation. To do that, he needed to make the Winter Knight bargain that started the whole chain of events. If Harry didn't subjectively believe that being the White Knight was "bad", he'd have had no reason to off himself despite the need to save Maggie., and despite the "guilt" inducement.

So was he induced to off himself, or just induced to save Maggie?

[Kouran]

I am not sure where Harry is comming from vis-a-vis Mab being evil. You cant apply good/evil to the sidhe they dont think and act like humans, because they arent human. I mean way way back in Summer Knight Harry got a bare glimps of Mab's true form, power and purpose and he said it nearly drove him mad. Mab is not just the queen of air and darkness she is air and darkness, to my mind Mab is a force of elements not just a being with a pleasing physical form.

If you accept the idea that Mab is completely outside the spectrum of human morality and is in fact a force of nature then it is easier to understand her. She is locked into an eternal struggle with the Seelie court. Winter must always fight Summer, by this battle the balance of the mortal world is maintained. Look at how much shit goes wrong when that balance is out of whack in the books.

Also think of how much Mab had to expend to stay in Chicago and keep it in the grip of Winter into May. That action didnt come without a price, just look at how Mab is described in the last section of the book, she was obviously at the end of her power.

[TheKassi]

I think it's polite to continue spoiler tagging the latest book, at least for a few weeks. I don't see any need to tag earlier books, though.

Spoilers

There is more then one way to destroy a person, killing someone isn't the only option on the table. The method chosen by the forces of darkness was to put Harry Dresden into extraordinary stress, and then make him believe their was only way out. A way that turned him against his very nature, and would eventually obliterate that part of him that made Harry Dresden a threat.

Remember Dresden didn't actually die. He wasn't allowed to. Uriel didn't bring him back to life, or stop the bullet from ripping right through him. He made no effort to preserve his life after he fell into the water, or in anyway try to mitigate the consequences of that choice. The only step Uriel took was showing Dresden that his choices were not all taken away from him.

I am not sure where Harry is comming from vis-a-vis Mab being evil. You cant apply good/evil to the sidhe they dont think and act like humans, because they arent human. I mean way way back in Summer Knight Harry got a bare glimps of Mab's true form, power and purpose and he said it nearly drove him mad. Mab is not just the queen of air and darkness she is air and darkness, to my mind Mab is a force of elements not just a being with a pleasing physical form.

If you accept the idea that Mab is completely outside the spectrum of human morality and is in fact a force of nature then it is easier to understand her. She is locked into an eternal struggle with the Seelie court. Winter must always fight Summer, by this battle the balance of the mortal world is maintained. Look at how much shit goes wrong when that balance is out of whack in the books.

Also think of how much Mab had to expend to stay in Chicago and keep it in the grip of Winter into May. That action didnt come without a price, just look at how Mab is described in the last section of the book, she was obviously at the end of her power.

This may be a fair point if the summer and winter knights did not exist. They however do, and their primary function is to carry out their Queen's interests in the mortal world.

If it has sentience, can make choices, and chooses to interact with humanity, human morality applies.

[Kouran]

This may be a fair point if the summer and winter knights did not exist. They however do, and their primary function is to carry out their Queen's interests in the mortal world.

If it has sentience, can make choices, and chooses to interact with humanity, human morality applies.

Granted, but I think that morality only is valid for the Knight and not for the Lady or Queen. The Knight is still a mortal, and still has free will and can act according to their will. The Queen and Lady are bound by their very nature, just as you cant really call a shark evil or a dog good you cant apply that to the Queen or Lady.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

If it has sentience, can make choices, and chooses to interact with humanity, human morality applies.

Right Harry is really judging the morality of their actions, not them personally. And he does seem to think that the Summer Court is more "good" than the Winter Court, though you could argue about that quite a bit given Ariel's actions.

[alguien]

About that bit of whispered "cheating"

Exactly what conduct did the whisperer induce? As I read it, the whispers weren't directly suggesting that Harry off himself. Rather, it was inducing him to save his daughter because it was his fault she was in that situation. To do that, he needed to make the Winter Knight bargain that started the whole chain of events. If Harry didn't subjectively believe that being the White Knight was "bad", he'd have had no reason to off himself despite the need to save Maggie., and despite the "guilt" inducement.

So was he induced to off himself, or just induced to save Maggie?

I think he had already decided he would be the Winter Knight before the fallen angel whispered it was his fault and that the whisper induced a despairing bad mindset, leading Harry to believe that if he joined Mab his corruption was inevitable. Had that voice not whispered Its all your fault then perhaps he would have had a better understanding that Mab couldn't change who he was.

I'll have to re-read the passage and check the timing. I'd be a bit disappointed if the whisper led Harry to joining Mab as well as his despair--if only because I don't think the idea should have come from a fallen angel, cuz I like the idea that being the Winter Knight isn't necessarily evil.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I agree Harry was going to be the Winter Knight. The whisper induced the suicide by proxy. Not the decision to become the Winter Knight.

[polishgenius]

I agree Harry was going to be the Winter Knight. The whisper induced the suicide by proxy. Not the decision to become the Winter Knight.

I'm not so sure. Uriel's seven words, the thing he was allowed to do to directly counteract the whisper, was to do with Harry submitting to Mab's will, not his death.

Anyway, ace book. Bit of an interim in plot terms - not that much happens in the wider scale- but very important on a character level. Something of a companion piece to Changes, really, which was the most plot-critical book so far but didn't leave itself any time to settle the aftermath.

[AverageGuy]

If it has sentience, can make choices, and chooses to interact with humanity, human morality applies.

I don't know to what extent any of the Fae can make choices. Mab's actions are bound by her nature in a way I would say mortals' are not.

[TheKassi]

Granted, but I think that morality only is valid for the Knight and not for the Lady or Queen. The Knight is still a mortal, and still has free will and can act according to their will. The Queen and Lady are bound by their very nature, just as you cant really call a shark evil or a dog good you cant apply that to the Queen or Lady.

If Queens and Ladies are bound by their very nature, how is it the events of Summer Knight unfolded? I haven't seen a lot of dogs empower sharks with the destruction of their packs in mind so that they may end the suffering inflicted upon fleas.