The Heroes - Spoiler Edition

[delete this account pls]

If Joe has an idea for him, a new story to tell, by all means, Logen could come back. But as it stands right now, I really do think that the final chapter in LAOK is the last we'll see of him, for reasons the hairy bear gave above.

Also, I feel liike Black Dow isn't getting enough props. What a great character. The most fascinating character to not get a POV, IMO. Behind his whole savage murderous persona, I thought he was a bit of a tragic figure in the end.

[TheEvilKing]

Yes Black Dow was the man.

Also, when Logen shows up in the trilogy I'm going to drag this thread from the grave and shove it in all your faces.

[red snow]

Yes Black Dow was the man.

Also, when Logen shows up in the trilogy I'm going to drag this thread from the grave and shove it in all your faces.

I think most people will hope/expect Logen to return at some point, so you can count me in your group of believers. There are good arguments on both sides but I still doubt that Joe has killed him off. The whole legend thing is cool but i just see that as a foreshadow to him coming back. At the end of the day we just have to wait and see as there's only one person who knows for sure (and even he may as yet be undecided)

Black Dow is the kind of character where I'd almost justify a whole re-read just to pinpoint exactly what he did before betraying Logen.

[Maithanet]

Black Dow is the kind of character where I'd almost justify a whole re-read just to pinpoint exactly what he did before betraying Logen.

It actually strikes me as a little odd that Black Dow the one who seized power. I mean, sure, brutal men become dictators all the time, but generally they have some form of charisma or loyal following or something. Dow didn't have a crew at any point in LaoK, and was both feared and hated by essentially everyone. I understand that the weakness of the Northern system is that the Baddest guy seems to get to call the shots, but I have trouble envisioning the war chiefs all lining up to follow such an unlikeable guy. Both Scale and Reachy (sp?), for example, seem much more capable of engendering the support of fellow Northmen.

[red snow]

It actually strikes me as a little odd that Black Dow the one who seized power. I mean, sure, brutal men become dictators all the time, but generally they have some form of charisma or loyal following or something. Dow didn't have a crew at any point in LaoK, and was both feared and hated by essentially everyone. I understand that the weakness of the Northern system is that the Baddest guy seems to get to call the shots, but I have trouble envisioning the war chiefs all lining up to follow such an unlikeable guy. Both Scale and Reachy (sp?), for example, seem much more capable of engendering the support of fellow Northmen.

I think the key here is that the Northmen thought he killed the Bloody Nine (I'm not sure which other characters, besides Shivers, were present at that point) and given they have a playground hierarchy of whoever beats the toughest is now the toughest, then I guess they all just fell in line. It could even be the case that given the short lifespan of the last couple of leaders, that no-one else was that keen. I guess Calder and Scale were eager but they weren't exactly popular given Bethod.

I also just realised that leadership is a new thing for the Northmen. Before Bethod they were pretty much tribal, with loose alliances here and there. It was only through Bethod and B9 that they finally got their first king, so i suspect a lot of the Northmen simply aren't that interested.

[delete this account pls]

Yes, apart from Calder, who has even less of a following, and the Dogman, who is probably seen as a Union sellout by a lot of the North, Dow doesn't actually have many rivals for the throne. Ironhead and Golden are too wrapped up in their own feud, Scale only cares about fighting, and Reachey can't do anything too overtly without destroying his reputation as a 'straight edge'. Any other potential rivals were prbably dealt with by Bethod years ago.

And he does have some followers. Brodd Tenways is known to be famously loyal (which turns out to be a front because he's an agent for Bayaz, but nobody knows that), and we don't learn much about Splitfoot, but it seems like Dow trusted him. And he has his own company of Carls.

Dow also had his own highly respected and feared Name. All of Logen's crew did. They were all chieftains/warlords/champions in their own right before joining Logen.

[williamjm]

I think the key here is that the Northmen thought he killed the Bloody Nine (I'm not sure which other characters, besides Shivers, were present at that point)

Scale and Calder were also in the room fighting against Logen, along with a couple of random unnamed Northmen. Calder did seem unsure about whether Logen was actually dead in The Heroes.

[dillinisgood]

I really like the book but I fin myself forgetting who some of the characters are. I never do that. There are entirely too many characters for this to be a standalone and i've never complained of this in his books before but the characters are running together as well.

[Maithanet]

I really like the book but I fin myself forgetting who some of the characters are. I never do that. There are entirely too many characters for this to be a standalone and i've never complained of this in his books before but the characters are running together as well.

Um..ok. I can't say I had that problem. And seeing how I'm reading Shogun now, I gotta say the problem comes up way more in that "standalone".

Yes, apart from Calder, who has even less of a following, and the Dogman, who is probably seen as a Union sellout by a lot of the North, Dow doesn't actually have many rivals for the throne. Ironhead and Golden are too wrapped up in their own feud, Scale only cares about fighting, and Reachey can't do anything too overtly without destroying his reputation as a 'straight edge'. Any other potential rivals were prbably dealt with by Bethod years ago.

And he does have some followers. Brodd Tenways is known to be famously loyal (which turns out to be a front because he's an agent for Bayaz, but nobody knows that), and we don't learn much about Splitfoot, but it seems like Dow trusted him. And he has his own company of Carls.

Dow also had his own highly respected and feared Name. All of Logen's crew did. They were all chieftains/warlords/champions in their own right before joining Logen.

I don't fully agree. I think that Ironhead or Golden or Reachy could have made a legitimate claim. And for the followers, he has them as of Heroes, ten years later, but how did he consolidate power before Logen got back? He didn't have any allies then; everyone he was with went down to Adua. Nobody has any reason to follow him and risk The Bloody Nine's wrath. Even if Dow was talking a big game about killing him, I don't really feel like it adds up.

[delete this account pls]

I don't fully agree. I think that Ironhead or Golden or Reachy could have made a legitimate claim. And for the followers, he has them as of Heroes, ten years later, but how did he consolidate power before Logen got back? He didn't have any allies then; everyone he was with went down to Adua. Nobody has any reason to follow him and risk The Bloody Nine's wrath. Even if Dow was talking a big game about killing him, I don't really feel like it adds up.

Initially? I'd say he had Bethod's Carls and Thralls in his pocket, most likely. They have no great love for the Bloody Nine, and both Bethod's sons were with Dow. For the initial coup, he doesn't really need that much support. In the first couple of years after that, I'm sure there was a bit of consolidation going on.

As for Ironhead or Golden making a claim, I'm not sure if I see it. They seem happy enough with their current positions. Ironhead in particular doesn't seem terribly bold - he withdraws almost immediately when Jalenhorm assaults the Children, for example, while Golden seems mainly interested in plunder. Reachey is a different prospect, I agree, but I dont think it's that unbelievable that he'd follow Black Dow for the moment. Maybe he had other plans down the road, who knows? Or maybe he's happy being Dow's most trustworthy War Chief?

[Datepalm]

Also, I feel liike Black Dow isn't getting enough props. What a great character. The most fascinating character to not get a POV, IMO. Behind his whole savage murderous persona, I thought he was a bit of a tragic figure in the end.

Don't know quite about tragic, but he was certainly one of the best characters, and I found myself rooting for him in the circle, even as he was being an utter jerk. One of my favorite bits was the Dogman's reaction to learning he was dead though. Nostalgia and all that.

Really strong book all round, though a few of the tertiary characters did start to run together - Aliz's husband and random incompetent officer number 3 and this venal northern lackey with that ugly northern lackey, etc.

[Nine989]

I also think Black Dow was a great character. The way he talks about the Dogman in the beginning shows a lot of respect. In fact, seeing as how he killed Forley the Weakest, you practically end up cheering him at the duel instead of Calder...

[Ski the Swift]

Call me a bastard but I really enjoyed the scene where Calder escapes the assassination attempt and then goes on the huge thinking tirade in his head about changing and then has Shallow and Deep kill the boy anyways.

[red snow]

Call me a bastard but I really enjoyed the scene where Calder escapes the assassination attempt and then goes on the huge thinking tirade in his head about changing and then has Shallow and Deep kill the boy anyways.

Joe is very good at pulling this kind of trick. The same thing happens with Gorst, when he tries to avenge his servant and it's done over the course of the entire book with the Union soldier (forgot his name already- didn't like him)when it turns out he's quite heroic when he makes his charge with the standard.

[pat5150]

Just finished The Heroes today and it was another very good read.

One thing, though. I can't remember from BSC, but is there a reason why Bayaz made sure that the Union sent about as crappy a force North to make sure that as many of them would be butchered as the Northmen? I know the First of the Magi has his own agenda, but I couldn't recall why he'd want both forces to be weakened as much as humanly possible by the conflict... :mellow:

Patrick

[Lord O' Bones]

Just finished The Heroes today and it was another very good read.

One thing, though. I can't remember from BSC, but is there a reason why Bayaz made sure that the Union sent about as crappy a force North to make sure that as many of them would be butchered as the Northmen? I know the First of the Magi has his own agenda, but I couldn't recall why he'd want both forces to be weakened as much as humanly possible by the conflict... :mellow:

Patrick

From what I can tell, the Union's Officer Corp just sucks that much.

[jurble]

You'd think Bayaz would forcibly reform the Union's military to make it not-shitty.

[Lord O' Bones]

You'd think Bayaz would forcibly reform the Union's military to make it not-shitty.

I wouldn't actually. Being large, the Union Army is a malleable force. If it were also competent, it would be dangerous. To Bayaz.

[delete this account pls]

There's plenty of decent, competent officers, I think. One of the points of the book, IMO, is that being in command is a tough fucking job. Even a brilliant man can make blunders. Mitterick for example does some stupid things, but the general opinion of him seems positive.

Also, Bayaz has a lot of plates spinning, he can't micromanage every little thing. Every professional army is going to have it's share of incompetent idiots at the top. Hell, every institution has that, military or otherwise.

[MinDonner]

Also, Bayaz doesn't give a fuck about people dying. If the army is just about competent enough to get the job done (regardless of losses) then he's not going to worry overmuch about the details.