The Heroes - Spoiler Edition

[Chalky]

I also think Black Dow was a great character. The way he talks about the Dogman in the beginning shows a lot of respect. In fact, seeing as how he killed Forley the Weakest, you practically end up cheering him at the duel instead of Calder...

I certainly didn't, I loved Calder's character. Black Dow wasn't a leader, he was a bully.

Favourite quote:

"And Beck reckoned it took some stones to smile at a time like that..."

[mormont]

I certainly didn't, I loved Calder's character. Black Dow wasn't a leader, he was a bully.

While this is true, it's hardly grounds for cheering Calder. Calder is a bully too, given the opportunity: Forley's fate shows that clear enough.

[Nine989]

Black Dow wasn't a leader, he was a bully.

.."

He certainly is a bully. But he must be seeing how things work in the North. Calder has his brother now, and he'll have to bully people.

I just can't like Calder for what he did to Forley. I think the poor guy was the only good guy in Abercrombie's Universe. SO tragic.

[Guinevere Seaworth]

A bit late to the game, but just finished it. I liked it alot, but I still like TFL better. Not much I can add after 15 pages, but I thought Finree was Joe's best female character he has written bar none. I thought she had great motivations and I liked how she evolved over the book.

I enjoyed Craw, Finree and Calder's POV. Like others, I found Gorst tiresome and found Tunney's POV pointless.

I found this novel was a big improvement in character and plot but it lacked the laughout loud moments that I had in TFL and even in BSC. Heroes felt more a thoughtful novel from Joe.

Can someone remind me about Sipani? I'm drawing a complete blank here.

If we ever get a novel where Bayaz and Khalul (sp) meet, I don't know who I would "cheer" for. Both guys are douchebags and would love to see both get knocked down a few pegs.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Can someone remind me about Sipani? I'm drawing a complete blank here.

Murcatto et al from Best Served Cold staged an attack on a famous brothel frequented by Jezal. Apparently Gorst was on his back and drunk during the attack and was therefore booted from his position of First Guard. For the life of me, though, I can't remember if she attacked the brothel for the purpose of attacking Jezal, or if that was an accident.

Interesting note: My dad just read this without having read any of the preceding books and really enjoyed it. I told him he absolutely had to read the first four books to fill him in (and just because my dad is retired, reads a lot, and enjoys fantasy but hasn't read the rest of Abercrombie's oevre). I wonder what the experience will be like, having all of the hints in Heroes (which those of us who read everything else understood) filled in after the fact.

[delete this account pls]

Murcatto et al from Best Served Cold staged an attack on a famous brothel frequented by Jezal. Apparently Gorst was on his back and drunk during the attack and was therefore booted from his position of First Guard. For the life of me, though, I can't remember if she attacked the brothel for the purpose of attacking Jezal, or if that was an accident.

It was an accident. The brothel was known to be Duke Orso's eldest son's favoured hangout in Sipani, and he was the target. IIRC, Monza and crew didn't expect him to show up with his brother-in-law at all.

[Ski the Swift]

It was an accident. The brothel was known to be Duke Orso's eldest son's favoured hangout in Sipani, and he was the target. IIRC, Monza and crew didn't expect him to show up with his brother-in-law at all.

They were expecting both of Orso's sons I thought, only until closer inspection did they find out Jezal was who they thought Foscar was.

[Lothlorian]

It was initially a trap for both of Orso's sons. Jezal was there because his wife is a lesbian, which Monza doesn't know until he is alone with her. He smoked to much husk and fell asleep, which is where they leave him in BSC. There isn't a mention of Gorst at all, so from what is said by Finree at the end of Heroes we can assume he was in the husk room set up by Monza & Co. for the event? There are POV's for the gaming room (I miss Friendly) and for the courtyard with Shivers and the other Northman, but not one for the smoking room which would explain his non-mention. I would assume he just got in trouble because Orso's son was killed in the next room and the whole place ended up on fire, putting Jezal at risk.

[Teng Ai Hui]

I have read the First Law trilogy. I'm not really interested in reading about Styria. Can I skip Best Served Cold and go straight to Heroes without becoming lost? (Also, I know this is a spoiler thread, but please don't put spoilers if you answer my question.)

[/stupid question]

[The hairy bear]

Can I skip Best Served Cold and go straight to Heroes without becoming lost?

Probably the answer is yes. I think that the only think of importance that you'd lost is the evolution of Shivers, both in character terms and physically. Other things are minor, I believe.

But I wouldn't advise you to do so. Styria is cool. Very cool. And the book is great. And while geographically unrelated to the FL, there's lots of character connections: you'll see the aforementioned Shivers, JezalCarlot dan Eider, Yuru Sulfur, the banker Mauthis, practical Vitari, the Grand Duke Orso,... with some passing references to many others.

[Turgon]

Probably the answer is yes. I think that the only think of importance that you'd lost is the evolution of Shivers, both in character terms and physically. Other things are minor, I believe.

I think Shenkt will play a bigger role in the future novels. Otherwise his appearance in BSC would be pointless.

Until now he is a minor character, but one of the few who are able to challenge Bayaz.

[Stego]

Black Dow was a lot more than just a bully. He was a successful tactician, warrior, and negotiator. By far the best general on the field in the book. Was he a bully too? Sure.

Ever met a General that wasn't?

[Nine989]

Black Dow was a lot more than just a bully. He was a successful tactician, warrior, and negotiator. By far the best general on the field in the book. Was he a bully too? Sure.

Ever met a General that wasn't?

Well said. I think it was very unfair the way he lost the throne. Then again, these novels are not about fairness.

[Dragonette]

I thought this was a great book. Joe's craft keeps improving. And he does happy endings surprisingly well, which was a pleasant surprise. Almost all of the endings had a nice circularity, tying them back to the opening chapters: Craw and Halfbread; Finree thinking about love and her husband, etc.. The characters were all very fleshed out and well down. Flawed all around. I was even starting to like Dow.

I also liked Joe's technique of telling some of the battle chapters through the use of skipping POVs: first day following the killer of the last POV; second day following the order to the soldiers in the bog; and third day based on people spying on the last POV. Clever, but not 'take-you-out-of-the-story' clever.

Is it just me, or did anyone else get the impression that Bayaz was eating human flesh in the dinner scene with Calder? Neither Bayaz nor Sulfur specified the type of meat. Also I could be misremembering, but at one point I thought Bayaz told Sulfur to give the money to the plumber? The reference must be to Deep/Shallow, but it seems anachronistic.

Perhaps Bayaz is trying to turn Calder into his latest Eater protegee?

[Dragonette]

I think Shenkt will play a bigger role in the future novels. Otherwise his appearance in BSC would be pointless.

Until now he is a minor character, but one of the few who are able to challenge Bayaz.

I am fascinated by the identity of Shenkt! Could he be Beshed?

[Dragonette]

Um..ok. I can't say I had that problem. And seeing how I'm reading Shogun now, I gotta say the problem comes up way more in that "standalone".

I don't fully agree. I think that Ironhead or Golden or Reachy could have made a legitimate claim. And for the followers, he has them as of Heroes, ten years later, but how did he consolidate power before Logen got back? He didn't have any allies then; everyone he was with went down to Adua. Nobody has any reason to follow him and risk The Bloody Nine's wrath. Even if Dow was talking a big game about killing him, I don't really feel like it adds up.

Have fun with Shogun - based on a true story too!! An amazing tale and far more ruthless than fantasy.

[Nine989]

I am fascinated by the identity of Shenkt! Could he be Beshed?

Can someone remind me who Beshed was?

[Ski the Swift]

Beshed was Juvens and The Maker's brother right? They had another brother called Glustrod as well.

[Maithanet]

Have fun with Shogun - based on a true story too!! An amazing tale and far more ruthless than fantasy.

Yeah, it was pretty good. I agree, the intrigue is beyond most fantasy novels.

Beshed was Juvens and The Maker's brother right? They had another brother called Glustrod as well.

I guess it's possible, but that seems pretty crackpot. You would have to assume that Bayaz had never met Beshed, when he was intimately acquainted with two (three?) of the other brothers. Given that Shenkt was once the apprentice to Bayaz, he would have also had to have been hiding his abilities the entire time, which would be tiresome. You'd think since he's a god he could at least negotiate a partnership with Bayaz. And in order for that to be true, he would have to be planning and plotting to bring about the downfall of both Magi for Millenia. And where has that gotten him? He's pretty powerful as Eaters go, but that's about all we know. He has no political power beyond his alliance with feeble humans.

I agree, I think we're going to see Beshed, but if it turns out to be a surprise reveal of one of the existing characters, it sounds a little too tropish for Abercrombie.

[john]

I think it's pretty strongly hinted in BSC that Shenkt is Casamir, former expansionist king of the Union who (iirc) conquered Angland and Starikland. Vitari calls him Cas and he bangs on all the time about the past and how even kings have to kneel.

Beshed is the one brother that we don't know what happened to him, though. That would be interesting to find out.