The Dagger and the Coin - SPOILER THREAD

[illrede]

Read the latest, it is good.

Realize that the historicity of source material for epic fantasy has up until now had a very large, glaring and inexplicable blind spot.

Look, there has been global struggles against a bloody chaotic Revolutionary wave, ambient madness and atrocity, evil overlord, etc... Wars of the French Revolution. Feudal states and principalities going down ten a penny in an ever widening cascade. What it was fought by, beaten by, was ultimately Great Britain, which was itself ultimately an organized Monetized National Debt with land and citizenry- and they didn't mostly do it by throwing their citizenry at it, or iron they had smelted, or weapons they had made, or presenting a unifying creed to form a coalition of powers.

They subsidized. Don't have a unifying ideology that will get Liberal-Phase Tsar Alexander to have a functional relationship with Emperor Franz? Use money, use it everywhere. Keep alternate fronts going while the Grande Armee is busy- money. Keep battered fuedal states from collapsing as they mobilize against a national conscript army? Money. Get it all to stop after it's been "won"? Well, Metternich, but he really leveraged his British Option there.

So I am glad that I am reading this.

[Gaston de Foix]

I'm part of the way through, and enjoying it. It's a slow burn, for sure.

[End of Disc One]

It's a slow burn, for sure.

Sounds like all of them so far. Looking forward to reading it.

[Gogossos]

I've finished it, so much for a slow burn! I loved it. Don't know if spoiler tags are useful anymore but I loved that last quote:

"Cithrin bel Sarcour, secret queen of the world."

[Faint]

I love how the books come out on a yearly basis so I actually remember everything that came before when I start reading them. The long interval between books has had a debilitating impact on my ability to read some series lately.

[RedEyedGhost]

I've finished it, so much for a slow burn! I loved it. Don't know if spoiler tags are useful anymore but I loved that last quote:

Unblocked spoilers are fine, now that we're passed the release date.

With that I'm out of the thread until I've actually read the book.

[Tears of Lys]

Just bought it!

:drool: Can't wait till it comes!

Now all I have to do is stay out of this freakin' thread - which will be much more difficult than conquering Asterilhold was.

[Altherion]

Finished reading it yesterday. I like this series a lot; it's the only one I can think of where, despite the presence of dragons, magic swords and the like, the secret weapon turns out to be

the invention of central banking.

Spider priests...

some interesting stuff on their use as Morade's weapon. IIRC we still don't have an explanation for why Kip is so different (if he really is).

I don't think he is that different. The power of the spiders is not absolute. Depending on how strong-willed the individual is and how far against one's natural beliefs they are pushing, significant repetition may be required before they are able to change an individual's mind. Master Kit beats them by constantly reminding himself to doubt: prefacing everything he says with "maybe", "possibly", etc. avoids affecting others with his power, but it also reminds himself.

[Migey]

Oh shit, this thing is out?

*Runs off to Amazon*

Hope there's a good synopsis of book 3 somewhere out there, even though I actually remember most of it. Also, I wonder what atrocity Geder will commit this book?

[shortstark]

Just finished his today, enjoyed it a lot.

was extremely pleased That Inys did not turn into a giant flying Deus ex Machina, slight niggles was the improbability of Clara's meandering in the wake of an invading army, and Cithrins role until the very end..

But these are very slight and understandable especially to Clara and the need to place her in midst of the action.

Geder, Geder, has there ever been a character like Geder? I find myself feeling sympathy for this person who is contemplating burning another fucking city and everyone in it. Reading Geder chapters is worth the price of my Kindle edition.

Events are finely poised, and I expect a fantastic conclusion to this tale, Daniel Abraham, you ser is a genius..

[Darth Richard II]

You think 15,30 is expensive for a paperback?

[Underfoot]

I loved the final glimpse we had of Geder in this book:

"I don't want to do this anymore."

He's so heart-breakingly, tragically human, while also being irreconcilably evil. I see more of myself in him than I do in any of the other characters, which is is just terrifying. (Though I doubt that even if I were given unlimited powers I would enslave children and burn people alive, but his self-esteem issues, love of books, awkwardness at social events, etc are so familiar to me)

[Mack Kilimaro]

I loved the final glimpse we had of Geder in this book:

"I don't want to do this anymore."

He's so heart-breakingly, tragically human, while also being irreconcilably evil. I see more of myself in him than I do in any of the other characters, which is is just terrifying. (Though I doubt that even if I were given unlimited powers I would enslave children and burn people alive, but his self-esteem issues, love of books, awkwardness at social events, etc are so familiar to me)

Geder is such a brilliantly-designed character. I feel like a fanboy when I gush about it. I agree with shortstark - can't remember there being a character like Geder. He's the sociopath through and through, and yet so easy to understand so often. You can see where he's the hero of his own story, and he does have moments of personal greatness that have nothing to do with the ruthless "intellectual" decisions.

His devising of the dragon devices in this book, for instance - that was all him, combing through the dead words even though Basrahip always condemns them. His belief in there being something in the books to help him bears fruit, and he goes from drawings to reality in a way that probably makes a difference in his war of conquest, which would have otherwise been halted there at Porte Olivia.

And then there are the moments that are just scary - like where he tells the cunning men that whatever happens to the mom must also happen to the baby. I expected a bad end there, with both dying as they try to obey Geder's futile command when perhaps they might have saved the mom, or the baby. But no, it worked out okay. And he thought he helped. Insane.

I love this series. It started out slow but it's really found its voice. It's a treat to get a book a year.

[Altherion]

And he thought he helped. Insane.

To be fair he did help -- the threats might not have been helpful, but he devoted a whole lot of resources (including presumably the best cunning men/women in the kingdom) to this and it paid off.

[Tears of Lys]

Must... not... read... thread!!!1

Where the hell is my book, damn it?! It should have been here by now.

/fumes

[Darth Richard II]

There are supposed to be five of these total correct? Not that I would mind if there were say, 20 more or so. :P

[beniowa]

Five books, yes.

[karaddin]

Latest was my favourite of this series I think. No individual moment that tops Yardem and Cithrin's chat about Geder in book 3, but just overall great. Geder continues to be the most incredibly written character who I hate to read about, he just makes my skin crawl he is too well done.

The way he keeps noticing people's fear then dismissing it because he can't see that he is a monster is particularly effective.

Loved the last lines from the last two proper chapters.

[AGRooster]

Finished reading it yesterday. I like this series a lot; it's the only one I can think of where, despite the presence of dragons, magic swords and the like, the secret weapon turns out to be

the invention of central banking.

I don't think he is that different. The power of the spiders is not absolute. Depending on how strong-willed the individual is and how far against one's natural beliefs they are pushing, significant repetition may be required before they are able to change an individual's mind. Master Kit beats them by constantly reminding himself to doubt: prefacing everything he says with "maybe", "possibly", etc. avoids affecting others with his power, but it also reminds himself.

To your banking point I think Neal Stephenson's The Baroque Cycle might pique your interest.

I'll aggree with everyone here on loving Geder. I Find myself pitying him, and hating him, and sympathyzing and wondering at how oblivious he is to the realness of his actions.

I mean, He burned Suddapel in this book and there really wasn't even a chapter devoted to it. It was very sneakily made a non issue. At one point he thinks "I may need to burn it" then he tells his dad he will have to, then finally I think they allude to it having already happened in one of his final chapters. Did I get that point right?

[illrede]

I'll aggree with everyone here on loving Geder. I Find myself pitying him, and hating him, and sympathyzing and wondering at how oblivious he is to the realness of his actions.

I don't love him. One of the things that put me on this series is how it shows traits considered indicative to morality are coincident to it*, getting a pure monster to appear half a good person- think not, just a monster with traits that allow misidentification. And getting acts of moral courage from unexpected quarters that ought not be unexpected at all, because you are unable to scan them as non-vile.

On one hand, a young scholar. Generous, deferring, earnest, good with children. Intellectually curious. Attentive to others regardless of race, class, or gender. On the other hand, a middle-aged monarchist military aristocrat. Doctrinally conservative. Classist, anti-parlimentary, personally brutal.

And if you have already made a judgement between the two or on either one of those being good or evil, it would have to be on pure bias- Something that accepts your assumptions, versus something that rejects your assumptions.

Only thing that would have made it better is if Geder were pro-Farmer's Council, but he's just that petty.

(*Part of what drew me to this series was Mr. Abraham's comments on the character of Dawson, specifically how his inspiration came from "Diary of a Man in Despair".

Always been trying to square the circle** of how the best domestic opposition ("loyal traitors") to Hitler was from military aristocrats whose common thread was classist revulsion. They didn't do for democracy, and they didn't do for a common bond of humanity, they found him odious; repellant to the order of the world- and the impulse they had to overcome was a fatalist adherence to formality. Them or the communists.

**"That's not an argument against Stauffenberg, that's an argument against the actual moral relevancy of having any opinion on political organization or Polish people whatsoever." being something I've told a friend in conversation.)