The death of Osama bin Laden and its aftermath

[IheartTesla]

While al Qaeda may not exactly be populated by rational actors, the Pakistani political/military class definintely is (and so are the Indians, most of the Iranians ruling council etc...). Thats why it is annoying to read that the Pakistanis will do this, the Indians will do that, the Iranians will commit mass suicide by doing something else...

I understand why such arguments are brought forth, but it doesnt make it any more palatable.

[Starkess]

Downside of being in the military--I have to put up with a lot of shit like this in my FB feed:

Funny. Osama bin laden was "discovered" right when everyone started to turn against Obama bin laden, and a year before elections. Awesome.

:bang:

[mcbigski]

Faceless and nameless officials who have a vested interest in proving the legitimacy of their techniques say their techniques worked? I see no reason to be sceptical.

I'd take it more seriously if someone like Panetta says it out loud. Otherwise these kinds of reports mean nothing. And just because it worked over a period of so many years doesn't mean we couldn't have got the information any other way.

I'd believe it entirely if Panetta says it out loud, but as a named official who has a vested interest in maintaining the Democrat sanctioned line re waterboarding, his denying its usefulness would not be any where near as probitive.

[Quoth]

Heard an interesting hypothesis last night. Many argue "Pakistan knew... They HAD to know". But this argument takes things off on an interesting tangent. What if the Pakistani Intelligence knew? What if they set OBL up there? What if he weren't a guest but was being detained as a "bird in a gilded cage", not under arrest, but not free to leave? Why? :dunno: Beats me. As insurance against...? As later use as a bargaining chip concerning...? Interested in your take on this odd slant.

[Greywolf2375]

Downside of being in the military--I have to put up with a lot of shit like this in my FB feed:

:bang:

Unfortunately you're not alone in seeing those - they are cropping up more and more.

Quoth - I'm not sure what the upside for them would be in that situation. Not sure how their doing something like that would help with their relations with other countries.

[Quoth]

Quoth - I'm not sure what the upside for them would be in that situation. Not sure how their doing something like that would help with their relations with other countries.

Like I said, beats me. Ah, but the world of Intelligence Services is truly wheels within wheels.

[ljkeane]

I think it's entrirely possible that the Pakistani government didn't know where he was because they simply weren't bothering to look for him. Their only real motivation to find him was because the US wanted him and I don't think they've been particularly happy with the US in recent years. It doesn't have to be some complex plot to hide him, just a lack of motivation to put too much effort into helping an ally that had been causing them a lot of difficulties recently.

[DanteGabriel]

Several previous posters have suggested that the celebrations in the streets are "unseemly". It's hard for me to completely figure out how I feel about this. Part of me is happy it happened the way it did for Obama's sake (in your face Donald Trump/republicans/previous administration/naysayers... etc).

Personally, whenever I see a bunch of people chanting "USA! USA! USA!" after a violent death, even the death of a mass murderer, it reminds me that we haven't progressed very far (if at all) past primitive tribalism.

Also, I think an uninformed observer might have a hard time telling the difference between crowds cheering Bin Laden's death, and crowds cheering his bloody atrocities.

I'd believe it entirely if Panetta says it out loud, but as a named official who has a vested interest in maintaining the Democrat sanctioned line re waterboarding, his denying its usefulness would not be any where near as probitive.

So we have officials with a vested interest in continuing the torture policy, and officials with a vested interest in ending the torture policy. I know which officials I'd side with.

[Guest Raids]

Apparently we're likely to see a photo with some large-caliber bullet damage above the left eye today. They may also release footage of the burial.

[Tempra]

Would a soft golf clap appease you, DG?

[DanteGabriel]

Would a soft golf clap appease you, DG?

Now see, I'm trying to be civil in this thread.

Now see, I'm trying to be civil in this thread.

[Harlot]

I'm not a fan of the "USA" chanting either (except in the realm of international sport) and I didn't engage in any wild celebration yesterday. But I think it begs the question just what is the "correct" reaction to this? I'm no ascetic monk that cherishes all life. Human beings make choices and actions that define them. ObL's choices and actions inevitably led him to a violent death and one that many, including myself, consider well deserved.

[Swordfish]

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment but it's not a quote by MLK. It's been circling the internet/FB etc since yesterday and no one really seems to know who it can be attributed to.

Actually, all but the first sentence IS from a quote by MLK.

My guess is that someone found the quote from MLK, parsed it, added the first sentence, and then it took off from there.

[Greywolf2375]

And the movie rights have been sold...sort of.

As yet untitled military project

[DanteGabriel]

I'm not a fan of the "USA" chanting either (except in the realm of international sport) and I didn't engage in any wild celebration yesterday. But I think it begs the question just what is the "correct" reaction to this? I'm no ascetic monk that cherishes all life. Human beings make choices and actions that define them. ObL's choices and actions inevitably led him to a violent death and one that many, including myself, consider well deserved.

I said in the other thread that I'm glad he's dead. There is no part of me that regrets his death, except a part that wishes it had come sooner, or after less fuckuppery by our national leadership in pursuit of this death.

I just would like the United States to live up to its rhetoric. Killing one crazy old fuck halfway around the world is not evidence that "America can do anything it sets its mind to."

[alguien]

I think the impulse to gather in the street and chant USA is understandable. I remember the sense of helpless anger, close to rage even, that I felt following 9/11.

I also think that we as a people can do better than that. To put it in Nerd Perspective: giving in to reveling in the death of another, (no matter how terrible that person was) feels like giving into the Dark Side.

I think in the previous thread awesome/ser possum mentioned a sense of quiet satisfaction, which is about what I felt. From a realpolitik standpoint, I think this was absolutely the correct thing to do.

[Harlot]

DG - What are examples for you that "American can do anything it sets its mind to"? And I don't mean that antagonistically, I'm curious if that is even a belief that people hold to anymore.

I just get a sense from many people, regardless of politics, that America isn't allowed to enjoy a victory anymore. We aren't allowed to do anything well, we aren't allowed to do anything execptional. We aren't allowed to be proud of our country and ourselves. The USA has it's faults, but it also has it's successes. Can we not enjoy the successes as much as we suffer the faults and failures?

[Deaf Dick]

I have no problem with spontaneous celebrations. We had been chasing him for 10 years, and until the news broke, we all figured that OBL would never be brought to justice. As long as we don't turn his death into a yearly celebration (or extend the current celebration), I don't see the jubilation as unseemly.

That's roughly what I was thinking where the spontaneous jubilation line crosses into the unseemly. I've got no problems with a Tigeresque fist-pump as opposed to a tepid golf clap.

[Quoth]

I think the impulse to gather in the street and chant USA is understandable. I remember the sense of helpless anger, close to rage even, that I felt following 9/11.

I also think that we as a people can do better than that. To put it in Nerd Perspective: giving in to reveling in the death of another, (no matter how terrible that person was) feels like giving into the Dark Side.

I think in the previous thread awesome/ser possum mentioned a sense of quiet satisfaction, which is about what I felt. From a realpolitik standpoint, I think this was absolutely the correct thing to do.

This.

I just get a sense from many people, regardless of politics, that America isn't allowed to enjoy a victory anymore. We aren't allowed to do anything well, we aren't allowed to do anything execptional. We aren't allowed to be proud of our country and ourselves. The USA has it's faults, but it also has it's successes. Can we not enjoy the successes as much as we suffer the faults and failures?

And this.

ETA - in the sense that I've no problem feeling good about the amazing successful operation in taking out a bad guy. But the whole dancing in the street business rubbed me the wrong way.

[Tempra]

I'm not a fan of the "USA" chanting either (except in the realm of international sport) and I didn't engage in any wild celebration yesterday. But I think it begs the question just what is the "correct" reaction to this? I'm no ascetic monk that cherishes all life. Human beings make choices and actions that define them. ObL's choices and actions inevitably led him to a violent death and one that many, including myself, consider well deserved.

I don't think there is one appropriate response. DG may want us all to be stone faced stoics, but we aren't. People cheered when that Australian kid beat up his bully. Who doesn't laugh when some asshole gets what's coming to him? Should I not have laughed and cheered when I heard that some grandma headbutted her attacker? I did. No doubt that there is something macabre about enjoying a person being injured, but there are reasons beyond the mere physical injury that we celebrate. OBL is responsible for well over 3000 deaths. He set out on a mission to destroy America. So, yes, I was happy to find out that he died. Better yet, I am happy that there was a 30-40 minute period where he knew he was about to die at the hands of an American. The fact that he and his son hid behind a woman as a shield is icing on the cake. I wasn't out chanting 'USA!", but I sure as hell didn't stop my lips from curling into a bright smile. Nope, I do not feel bad at all.