[BOOK SPOILERS] EP105 Discussion

[smegma]

Also, helllllooooo Alfie Allen. Now I can see why you played the lead in Equus. Not bad, not bad at all.

[GreatswordIce]

Great episode, loved it, but didnt like they changed eddards leg scene, and loras and renly??? wtf?

[AquariumDrinker]

I read as much of the thread as I could, but sleep calls and I am about to pass out. My favorite scene was the mountain clan skirmish.

Bronn is the fucking man!!!

I really enjoyed watching Tyrion struggle with wanting to jump on a horse and escape, then deciding to defend Cat.

Bronn had the best fight choreography so far, he killed with such ease and his swordwork was excellent.

[TheEvilKing]

Loved this episode. The shit has now hit the fan.

First impressions:

- Loved the Robert/Cersei scene. Best part of the episode. Superb writing and performances.

- The Eyrie looks cool, especially the Sky Cells. Robin and Lysa Arryn are creepy as fuck. That is a scary, unhinged place.

- Bronn kicks ass in the fight scene.

- The Hound vs the Mountain was really cool.

- Loras looks like a little bitch. Also I think he might be gay.

- The Small Council meeting was really well done. Ned was excellent in that scene. Robert bellowing as he left the room was a nice touch.

- I generally enjoyed the Varys/Littlefinger scene. Littlefinger knows about Illyrio's visit? Interesting. The dude who plays Varys is spot on.

- The Ned/Jaime showdown was epic.

ETA: Robert fucking with Lancel is hilarious.

[Morrigan]

I dare say... best episode yet? Action-packed, to be sure.

Pros:

- The Hound / the Mountain fighting. Bad. Ass. \m/

- Bronn being also badass.

- Varys vs Littlefinger's battle of wits was a bit forced, but still great.

- Poor Jory :(

- Arya chasing cats <3 :ninja:

- Lysa's different than what I imagined, but she's still a creepy, disgusting bitch. *approves*

- Jaime kicking that soldier's ass over the cheap shot to Ned's leg. Nice! And yet somehow very in-character, I thought.

Cons (minor):

- more exposition through silly nudity (Theon / Ros). Way to make sure people don't pay attention to the dialogue guys :lol:

- no Dany / Jon. no time for it in the episode, but still, pity.

- non-canonical "I loved Robert once" Cersei still annoys me, but I have to admit Lena plays her pretty well. I just have to get used to the fact that Cersei's a different character than from the book...

- okay, so Loras / Renly are non-ambiguously gay and very much so, I don't mind that, but why did they make Renly such a "eww blood!" pansy? come on now :bs:

- Loras looks like a little bitch. Also I think he might be gay.

I LOLed. :D

[Kalbear]

Cersei v. Robert: Easily the most controversial scene in the episode, people just don't like having a more sympathetic Cersei. Well, sorry, but I think we all should have had some sympathy for her (for reasons expressed time and time again). Robert illustrated perfectly why he is terrified of a Targaryen resurgence on the back of dothrakai screamers; for the first time we saw a man who actually had foresight and vision- even if it was at the end of a lance. He sees what his realm's problems are and how a Targaryen resurgence is possible. And in his voice... just that hint of paranoia over Ned, over Jaime, over Tywin, over Cersei, over himself. But Cersei had this scene the whole time- this is her husband and she spoke to him like a wife, calling him Robb, taking his bait on the "Which is greater: 5 or 1" question. And then finally giving him the out she wants to hear: Tell me we could have made it together. That's all I ask. Tell me you could see in me something you could not see in Lyanna; that these 17 years together were not all for nothing.

And Robert was- once again -so brutally honest. He doesn't even remember what Lyanna looked like. But he remembers what she made him feel like.

The reason I liked that scene was because we come face-to-face with true, fleshed out people and not the shadowy people we have come to know through Martin's POV system (please do not mistake me: Martin's POV system is tremendous and adds so much to the story- BUT there are things lost in it as well). Are we to believe these two people NEVER had this kind of talk? It would be barbaric. No, when push comes to shove there is some respect for the other, enough to try to see the other. Enough to, still, try to hurt the other. And then deny the pain.

And Addy's Robert is now, officially, the character in the series who improved the most on the books. Second, is Viserys. Jury still out on Cersei.

Agreed. While there were a ton of great moments lifted from the book - the east road, Arya's overhearing, the tournament, the decision on Dany, Ned's sudden yet inevitable betrayal - this was the best part.

I guess one of the things that I'm finding is that the show is far more interesting in the spaces that I've not seen or read before. I don't need to see a tournament or a Dothraki or a dragonskull or a dragon's egg. I don't need to see the duels and the conversations verbatim. That's all great, but I've already experienced a great version of that; the best that can happen is that it's realized as great as it is in the books, like Arya's training.

But the new scenes - they're awesome. It's like the deleted scenes version of the books. It's like getting to read the books and finding a whole new detail all over again. And in this case, it was a truly tremendously well-acted scene between Cersei and Robert. The weight of their loveless, unhappy marriage in which they stay together because of duty but loathe each other. The struggle for normalcy and candor when every word is an opening. The burden of 17 years knowing every little flaw and slight of the other. It was a tremendous scene that makes me love the direction they're taking Cersei all the more; book Cersei could never be so vulnerable with Robert, so human, and Robert could never be so open with book Cersei. Just phenomenal work. I'm downright astounded at those who think otherwise; seeing that scene and thinking not about how great the acting was or the poignancy or the sheer perfection of it from the standpoint of it being so...fucking fitting for Westeros and GRRM, but instead how it's not in the books or it's not the Cersei they read about? Wow.

Just great.

Loras really should be built more. He might not be a mass of muscle, but he should at least look like he's occasionally worn armor. Bad choice, that. That's really my only quibble of this ep. Astounding, well-paced ep from start to finish.

[Myrish swan]

Hmm... no.

Cercei doesn't get as much popularity as Littlefinger does because she's a dumb villain and Petyr is a smart villain.

Yeah, and GRRM made it that way for a reason.

Furthermore, there is a hell of a lot differing in the LF/ Cersei portraits than just their intelligence.

The difference is largely in presentation, but the end result is the same-- LF ends up largely beloved; Cersei despised.

If you want me to expand on all the ridiculous ways in which GRRM glorifies Petyr and demonizes (or simply degrades) Cersei, I will, but I don't want to take up too much thread space on such an obvious issue.

[Spring Bass]

I just watched it (my HBO got cut off, so I had to watch a later showing).

1. Gregor Clegane looks very damn awesome and terrifying. Better than how I imagined him, although I imagined Book-Gregor being taller. This guy looks like a monster, the type of guy who would rape an innkeeper's daughter on a table in front of the father, or have a failed outrider's eyes cut out and given to the next outrider as a warning against failure.

2. I actually liked the Varys vs Littlefinger pettiness and wordplay.

3. Robert was still perfect - he's been one of the better portrayed characters so far. I liked some of what he talked about with Cersei, although not the whole "Our marriage sucks, doesn't it?" bit.

4. I'm still divided on Show-Cersei vs Book-Cersei. I like how Show-Cersei is more sympathetic, but I still think I like Book-Cersei more.

5. The Sky Cell is too big - he's got an actual room in there. I think it should have been much smaller (IIRC, Tyrion had something like five feet from door to sky, and was constantly afraid he'd accidentally roll off in his sleep).

The difference is largely in presentation, but the end result is the same-- LF ends up largely beloved; Cersei despised.

I'd hardly say Littlefinger is "widely beloved." He's damn clever and good at the Game of Thrones, but he's also got a serious pedophile vibe going in his relations with Sansa. Most people think he's sleazy.

[Chirios]

What I thought at the end of the episode:

"It's like Logen said. You can never have too many knives."

[Spring Bass]

Side-note, but I'm very sad that we're already halfway through the season.

[Myrish swan]

But the new scenes - they're awesome. It's like the deleted scenes version of the books. It's like getting to read the books and finding a whole new detail all over again.

Hmmm.... you know, a lot of people might disagree with me here, however, I think the Cersei/ Robert scene was not like anything seen in the books. I actually think (just when it comes to these two characters) that the T.V. show has actually been a great improvement on the books. Not to denigrate the books. I know they contain this wonderful, rich, imagined world of Westeros to begin with, and are filled with many colorful characters. However, keeping in mind that nothing is perfect, I'm going to put it out there that I think some of the characters (including a few of the main ones) are fairly...unbeliveable. And this cannot be attributed solely to the POV system. In particular, Cersei and especially Robert have struck me as two underdeveloped characters. Not to mention the fact that their relationship with each other was a very simplistic view of a sterotypically unhappy marriage; with Cersei as the emasculating, shrewish wife, and King Bob as the philandering husband. Here, in the T.V. show, we get two truly complex, well- thought out characters, with a believable history and complex relationship with each other.

The weight of their loveless, unhappy marriage in which they stay together because of duty but loathe each other. The struggle for normalcy and candor when every word is an opening. The burden of 17 years knowing every little flaw and slight of the other. It was a tremendous scene that makes me love the direction they're taking Cersei all the more; book Cersei could never be so vulnerable with Robert, so human, and Robert could never be so open with book Cersei.

I actually don't think book Robert would have been capable of such complex, adult thoughts and feelings as T.V. Robert clearly is. Book Robert always struck me as little boy trapped in a man's body; T.V. Robert clearly deals with grown up emotions, but does everything he can to repress them.

At this point, after scenes like this drawing sympathy for Cersei, I fear more and more that the writers are going to go down the "Cersei poisoned her little baby by Robert!" route. Now that she mentioned "our son," to him, we know that it was not all just some story she made up to throw Cat off. Furthermore, Cersei (or at least people tend to claim) needs to be unsympathetic. At this point, despite the affair with Jaime, and even having Robert's bastard children killed to protect her own, I'd say that she engenders some sympathy. Which makes me suspect that Cersei will admit to Ned she killed her firstborn son. Which honestly makes no sense whatsoever to me, given everything I know about Cersei thus far from both the movies and the books. Oh well.

I'm downright astounded at those who think otherwise; seeing that scene and thinking not about how great the acting was or the poignancy or the sheer perfection of it from the standpoint of it being so...fucking fitting for Westeros and GRRM, but instead how it's not in the books or it's not the Cersei they read about? Wow.

Yeah, I don't get the need that some people have to have Cersei be PURE EVIL and totally unsympathetic.

[axels15]

I missed Renly/Loras on my second read-through as well. Damn

[Myrish swan]

I'd hardly say Littlefinger is "widely beloved." He's damn clever and good at the Game of Thrones, but he's also got a serious pedophile vibe going in his relations with Sansa. Most people think he's sleazy.

He is not beloved in the sense that, say, Tyrion or Arya is beloved. However, readers in general admit to finding him fascinating, amusing, and weirdly likeable. There's also a significant portion of the readership who, despite his deeds, profess to love him, and hope that he'll win the iron throne in the end. Basically, considering his deeds, very few readers hate LF. Many, as I've said, think he's very funny/ witty, and enjoy reading about him, despite the fact that he's a villain. People also seem to very rarely feel any sort of deep, personal hatred for him.

In contrast, Cersei is loathed. Her incompetence in AFFC alone is not enough to explain this; she is presented in a way that encourages the reader to loath her.

As for LF being a pedophile, GRRM obviously doesn't think so. He portrays pretty much every healthy adult male in 12 year old Sansa's vicinity as being attrackted to her, something I guess we're suppossed to find normal. The thing that is presented as creepy in the LF/ Sansa relationship is the fact hat LF wants Sansa as sort of a Cat replacement. However, still, I have yet to hear anyone profess to hate LF for this. In fact, I've read several posters declaring they hope LF has his way with Sansa. :stillsick:

[SerArthurHeath]

I think the Jaime fight was a wasted opportunity. Think about it, inthe books we know he's a great fighter because we have his PoV and a lot of people being scared of him even with his injury and a lot of people saying it. In the tv show, these things need to be shown as they cannot be told. With this fight being so ambiguous as to who was better, by the time Jaime is maimed he will have been seen to fight one on one twice, once against a girl, and never have won. Which really throws off his character, which has a development continuing for several seasons, and every other character's interaction with him, in the favour of saving face for a character whose sword prowess is irrelevant in every way, even including the ToJ. Unless they add a significant number of new scenes to make Jaime an actually good, as in more than just competetant swordsman, and he already has a lot of extra scenes, then his entire arc won't work

[Great Jared]

Ned's sudden yet inevitable betrayal

I think we should call it you're grave!

[melicorn]

There was one bit of choreography in the Gregor v. Sandor fight that I really liked: at the very end, Sandor narrowly misses being beheaded by Gregor by kneeling before the king faster. I thought that was fairly clever.

[Spring Bass]

Back to the show, I think this was my favorite episode so far.

Yeah, I don't get the need that some people have to have Cersei be PURE EVIL and totally unsympathetic.

That's the thing - I've never seen Book-Cersei has either pure evil or totally sympathetic. In fact, what makes her such an interesting character once we get a viewpoint from her is that you can sympathize with her, understand her . . . while still thinking that she's an awful person. I noticed that on my recent re-read of AFFC. Cersei is paranoid, cruel, and impulsive - and it works, at least for me.

[Daenerys]

Confirmation Cersei wasnt lying about her first boy.

She wasn't lying about losing the child. But what is not confirmed is whether she had him killed or if it truly was just misfortune. That's the important point.

[CloudFlare]

Wow. This episode rocked. The Cersei/Robert, Loras/Renly and Varys/Littlefinger scenes were great. The L/R one really fleshed out why why Renly was motivated to make a play for the crown. Does anyone else think that Family Tyrell pushed Loras to motivate Renly? The C/R scene was a bit out of character, but still worked somehow.

Aidan Gillen as Littlefinger rocks. I know GRRM hates derivative works, but I would love to see a show about him. He's a modern day Iago. Hell, why not a theatrical production featuring Littlefinger?

One iffy thing: Ned not knowing who the best swordsmen in his guard were. GRRM specifically points out that Ned knows all his men, e.g. Porther(older, a bit lethargic, not so bright) and CayneAlaine(?, rash).

Edit: Was it the Cersei/Robert scene where Robert said they haven't had a real fight in 9 years? Was that referring to the Greyjoy rebellion?

[Eponine]

No Jon, no Dany = awesome

Renly + Loras = not sexy :(

When I didn't find Renly to be handsome or charismatic last episode, I was disappointed but thought that maybe Loras could be fabulous enough for both. Now I'm just disappointed. It makes me cringe, watching these two soft and foppish manscapers pretend to be Renly and Loras. I don't want to have to see them in the show so I can keep thinking of them as awesome.

On the plus side, Lysa brings on the crazy even better than what I imagined from the book.. I'm really convinced by the actress and I see why they abandoned the book description to be able to cast her. Although I think that the acting is good overall, I think many of the actors are still less than their book character - they're going through the motions of a part that's already established, and it's hard not to always be comparing them to what they "should" be like. The actress who plays Lysa is already more than the book character, IMO.

I didn't like Robert/Cersei for the same reason that Ive not been impressed with several of the added scenes - they just keep going and going. I don't like the change that they've gone from years of built up avoidance to this honest and thoughtful conversation in which Robert is sober and Cersei is wistful. I think it makes her seem weak and indecisive rather than sypathetic.

Cersei vs Littlefinger - the problem with the female characters and likeability is that they're mostly humorless. Almost all the funny and verbally clever stuff is given to the male characters, and there aren't any equivalently clever female characters with much screen time. Even as bad as he is, it would be entertaining to be around Littlefinger with his quips and scheming, while I can't imagine that actually being around Cersei or Cat would be entertaining in the least.

ETA: is the horse killing at all plausible? I thought it was that Gregor kills the horse with one blow, ripping through part of its neck. It was cool that they included him killing the horse, but it seemed pretty unrealistic that the whole head came off like that. Gregor is properly scary.