[BOOK SPOILERS] EP105 Discussion

[Été]

I liked the Cersei/Robert scene but had no sympathy for Cersei at all: I assumed she was lying through her teeth the whole way through. We know she had a crush on Rhaegar and grew up thinking she'd be his queen; she ends up married to the man who killed him, who is another member of Lyanna's fan club, which sucks for her but she never cared about Robert. She's making him ashamed of the way he's treated her, but I don't think she feels a word of it.

Jaime is badass. I love how he seemed completely at ease in the duel, but Ned looked pushed to the limit of his ability.

Liked the tourney scene a lot and really wish there was a lot more of it. I want to see Dondarrion, Thoros and the Sandor-Sansa scene! But I didn't miss them until the end of the episode and I'm trusting the producers here. Renly/Loras created a bit of setup for Season 2; I think Theon's had enough of that by now. He's an ass, we get it!

The Eyrie looks really cool - not how I pictured it (where are Sky, Snow and Stone?) but still pretty awesome. Tyrion was great! Lysa and Sweetrobin are fantastically batshit. Bring on next week.

[CloudFlare]

The Eyrie looks really cool - not how I pictured it (where are Sky, Snow and Stone?) but still pretty awesome. Tyrion was great! Lysa and Sweetrobin are fantastically batshit. Bring on next week.

I like the castle itself, but the huge natural(?) arch bridges seemed kind of hokey. Maybe the way-castles are located there.

[Wethers]

Basically, considering his deeds, very few readers hate LF.

Really?

I loathe LF. There is not a single character in the book I hate more from an emotional standpoint. Maybe Gregor if he were actually 3-dimensional. I hate Petyr all the more because he always seems to come away unscathed and seems forever one step ahead of everyone with his jaunty little schemes (hoping Sansa turns the tables on him).

I do strongly dislike Cersei too, but in a more ordinary, less visceral way, and by AFFC I feel sorry for her. I certainly don't find myself wishing for her to come to a painful, gruesome end like I sometimes do with LF in my weaker moments, though I suspect it's more likely to happen to her than to him. And this is "book Cersei" I'm talking about, let alone "series Cersei" - I feel for her, not sympathy, but a shred of compassion given her circumstances (none such for LF).

By AFFC, Cersei has become unhinged, losing her twin brother's support, losing Joffrey, losing Myrcella, being bullied by and then losing her domineering father, fearing Tyrion. Sure she's revealed to have been a murderous villain all along, but LF is true evil.

So no, I don't get at all that GRRM wrote LF for people to admire, though I admit that while lurking on these boards, I've noticed that some people do admire him in a perverse way that I don't comprehend (maybe they just like the way he was written?). To me, Cersei is a villain, but LF is THE villain.

[CloudFlare]

Wonder about child actors and what they can and can't have them doing... I mean, Lysa and Sweetrobin and that big swollen breast.. GAAAKKKK. :ack:

CGI?

[Kat]

First, the important bites

- Loras looks exactly like the kind of boy that teen girls dream of. He's made to not look hot, but really "pretty". Think Leo DiCaprio in Titanic.

Yeah, when I read the books, the picture in my mind was a slightly younger Heath Ledger in A Knight's Tale. I remember when I went to go see that at the seedy movie theater in the mall next to my high school, and that afternoon the theater seemed to have been invaded by 8th grade girls who spent the first half of the movie going OMGSQUEEEEEEE HEATH LEDGER HE'S SO HOTT to the point where my loudmouth friend actually told them to STFU, sit down, and turn off their phones. Heh. Anyway, yeah. Loras. Dreamboat. Totally rocked the dreamboat look when he was on his horse, anyway.

In the books the dominant personality was clearly Renly, whereas here Loras is evidently in charge. Just a curious switch, IMO.

Yeah, although we never really see them on their own in the books. Loras is totally full of teenage anger when he goes on a rampage after Renly's death, and I never get the idea that he was subordinate in their relationship. He must at least have some of the characteristics of the rest of his scheming family, who surely approves of his being in bed with someone high in the line of succession. He's just not very good at playing his part (not as smooth as Olenna, Margaery, or Garlan) and maybe too eager to please. "Oooh, pick me, pick me, my daddy's rich and powerful." Not very subtle there.

I thought the Loras/Renly scene was good. It introduced more than just manscaping. It introduced Stannis. It introduced the Tyrells. It also hinted at Renly and Loras' ambition. In the book, we knew they were scheming to being Maergary to court. For tv purposes, this was better.

Agree completely. It was a scene with more than one purpose. 1: :read: 2: :drool:

In the novels, Renly is a knight. He rode in the tourney. He's an average knight, apparently, Stannis mocks him for taking part to let better men defeat him, but still.

He's perfectly capable and willing to fight, but he knows he's no great warrior like Robert, to go off and lead the vanguard.

On that, either I'm misremembering, or they switched the contests Renly and Robert were good at in tourneys. Wasn't Robert supposed to be preparing for the melee, while Renly rode in the joust? I thought that showed a bit more of their personalities in the book and was disappointed to see they had reversed those. Makes no sense with screen Renly to prefer something up close and bloody if he doesn't like blood, anyway.

I always thought Renly was supposed to be a poor man's version of war hero Robert, but much better socially and politically, and it would have been nice if they had been able to show Renly as a bit of a popular party boy. Because that is how he earns his popularity, anyway. Loras spells it out in the shaving scene, but without showing it, it does make you wonder why, if Renly isn't a fighter, is his entire popularity based on being propped up by the Tyrells?

This was my exact thought during that scene. When Robert said "No" he just sealed his fate in her mind, and she felt nothing.

Wasn't that part of the scene a version of something that Cersei remembers or tells someone in the books? I know they've drastically changed the characterization of Cersei (an improvement, imho) but I do vaguely recall her getting totally ticked off on something Robert said to piss her off.

It was an odd scene, really. I'm not sure what to make of it. If Robert and Cersei hate each other so much, how come they can have a little chat like this and be so....wistful/nonchalant, rather than outright loathing that we've seen them display elsewhere, such as when Robert wanted to go visit Lyanna's crypt, or when he's drunk at the tourney or the feast at Winterfell? Oddly intimate conversation between married frenemies.

Cersei "killing her firstborn", as you say. Now, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I've come to the conclusion that yeah, the show probably is going to go this route. And their main motive will probably be to make sure that viewers see that Cersei is the truly evil one; Robert and Ned are good. Otherwise, even if she had had children with her brother, and killed Robert's bastards to protect said children, I suspect some viewers might still sympathize with her. Or, if not sympathize, than some might at least pose the question: was Cersei really so much more evil than her husband, King Robert? After all, he did hit and abuse her. And all of the evil stuff she did, she did for her children.

Really? You think the portrayal of Robert has been sympathetic in any way, or made him look like a good guy? To me it's pretty clear that the production has him exactly as he should be: a drunken, bloodthirsty lout past his prime and a bit out of his element. Making Cersei more sympathetic is not diminishing from the wretchedness of Robert as a king. Only Ned looks good in all this.

Honestly, I thought the Eyrie was incredible.

Had no idea how the show would capture the feel of the place from the books, but this exceeded all expectations. I mean, sure it was CGI, but I was pretty sure they weren't going to build an impregnable citadel on an unreachable mountain just for filming. Everything about the Eyrie and the Arryns was spot on IMO.

The Citadel was awesome. My favorite castle so far, and the long shot of the Vale was my second favorite after the one of Beyond the Wall.

[DurararaFTW]

I didn't have a problem with Cersei and Robert portrayal in the books. Robert was one of my favorite characters and his last scene is one of the saddest in series bar none. AFFC may have shown her as more unstable then ever before, but she was never suppose to be rational, she was suppose to be the person that did a crappy job raisig Joffrey, turned Robert into a shell of his former self, did a crappy job controlling Joffrey and eventually ran the Realm into the ground over five years of rule. AFFC merely sped up the process.

A Song of Ice and Fire was a world filled with grey but required one truly good character (an adult good guy, that is) Ned and one truly bad (one that actually took forefront in the story and good significant characterisation in spite or her role), Cersei. Cersei drew the short straw. Too bad.

But I like this more. Cersei and Robert scene was great.

Extra scene with Bran and Luwin was good, I liked what the Ned vs Jaime fight did for Jaime's character. The gayness I'm meh toward, I don't deny that it was canon, but it was just something extra for those who are into that. Not so here. Varys and Littlefinger I wasn't sure about. Though I do like that Varys managed to get the last word in.

Barristan is getting shortchanged, Ned stands alone in convincing Robert to not joust and not assassinate Dany. Perhaps him being a POV character wasn't set in stone yet when this was shot but him being sympathetic to Dany and aware of her continued existence, as well as Jorah's true nature is a important plot point.

[The Demon of Darry]

that added scene from last week's episode where Jory and Jaime reminisce about fighting together on pyke really adds a whole new dimension of vileness to Jaime when he so easily stabs Jory in the eye.

[Eponine]

I always thought Renly was supposed to be a poor man's version of war hero Robert, but much better socially and politically, and it would have been nice if they had been able to show Renly as a bit of a popular party boy. Because that is how he earns his popularity, anyway. Loras spells it out in the shaving scene, but without showing it, it does make you wonder why, if Renly isn't a fighter, is his entire popularity based on being propped up by the Tyrells?

I wouldnt follow that guy to a box of free doughnuts.

[CloudFlare]

I didn't have a problem with Cersei and Robert portrayal in the books. Robert was one of my favorite characters and his last scene is one of the saddest in series bar none. AFFC may have shown her as more unstable then ever before, but she was never suppose to be rational, she was suppose to be the person that did a crappy job raisig Joffrey, turned Robert into a shell of his former self, did a crappy job controlling Joffrey and eventually ran the Realm into the ground over five years of rule. AFFC merely sped up the process.

I think Show-Cersei is going to be more likable and rational much longer in the books. In the books, the four adult women PoV all have at least moments of madness. Lysa had been slotted as the nutjob. If the show stays true to form, Cat will go mad and Dany will have episodes of madness. Having Cersei go nuts as well would be worn out on screen, so I bet she stays coldly calculating.

[L’Age d’or]

Best episode of the season so far! I liked the added scenes although they came as a surprise. Loras is not the Loras I always imagined nor is Renly but I can live with that. Eyrie and the crazy duo were amazing especially the shot from the dungeons. Tourney although it was the weakest part of the series ended with an amazing fight scene. Gotta give credit to the actor playing Bronn, he is nailin it. The only added scene I wanted out was Cersei/Robert, totally unnecessary. Jory's death was rather anticlimactic but the modified fight scene was overall great. 9.5/10

[L’Age d’or]

There was one bit of choreography in the Gregor v. Sandor fight that I really liked: at the very end, Sandor narrowly misses being beheaded by Gregor by kneeling before the king faster. I thought that was fairly clever.

Yea, have to hand it to the sword play master on the set, I was replaying that move in my head for 2 minutes after that scene :fencing:

[Wethers]

There was one bit of choreography in the Gregor v. Sandor fight that I really liked: at the very end, Sandor narrowly misses being beheaded by Gregor by kneeling before the king faster. I thought that was fairly clever.

I loved that too. But I think that was directly from the book, no? Or is that what you are saying (fairly clever... of GRRM in the book).

[Spaßvogel]

Renly + Loras = not sexy :(

When I didn't find Renly to be handsome or charismatic last episode, I was disappointed but thought that maybe Loras could be fabulous enough for both. Now I'm just disappointed. It makes me cringe, watching these two soft and foppish manscapers pretend to be Renly and Loras. I don't want to have to see them in the show so I can keep thinking of them as awesome.

Yeah, I think Renly was *somewhat* miscast, but Loras was *horribly* miscast. When he was standing there naked he looked too scrawny to lift a sword let alone fight with one. Renly at least looked a bit athletic (but still doesn't seem very much like a Barratheon). I honestly think that HBO pushed to bring what was a very subtle thread from four books and spoil it right away because it fits their idea of "edgy" They are ruining several future awesome character moments as well. Either way, Loras should've been a lot more built to be a knight. He looks like a refugee Ambercrombie and Fitch model. Lame lame lame.

The Theon/Roz scene also seemed totally gratuitous simply because Roz repeated everything that Tyrion had said to Theon in a previous episode. Heck, the Bran/Luywin scene even rehashes it somewhat.

I liked the Robert/Cersei scene *somewhat* but unless you know what's coming that scene comes off a lot differently. It seems like they're trying to get sympathy more for Cersei, but to someone who has read the books, it seems like she's sizing him up to decide whether she is going to kill him or not.

I didn't mind horribly the changes to the Jaimie/Ned throwdown. They had telegraphed combat between the two for a long time. Jaimie punching the guy who intervened seemed pretty in-character. Littlefinger didn't seem very forceful with his "hey, no stop that" stuff.

Anyway, loved the Arya stuff. Her rambling seemed a lot more coherent than it had been in the book. She even mentioned finding the bastard which should've given credence to what she was saying. It was also nice to see Illyro and Varys clearly. How much discussion did it take originally to figure out who was talking back in the day? :)

[Gertrude]

Some of the little bits I liked ...

At one point in Cersei and Robert's talk, they laughed over how long they've hated this marriage. I liked it. It's a visual portrayal of 'if I didn't laugh I'd be crying'. Emphasizes the hopelessness of their situation I think. I don't know why so many people are convinced Cersei killed their firstborn. In the HBO version, I could absolutely see Cersei wanting that child thinking it might bring her and Robert closer as it seems she wanted the marriage to work early on. After that it probably drove a wedge between them because they were grieving alone, not giving or getting support from the other and Cersei found comfort in Jaime.

I loved Jaime's look during the fight with Ned where he was grinning. I could read on his face that this was the type of thing he lived for. He seemed both to show respect to Ned for giving him a good fight, and smirking at the prospect of beating him. Very nice.

Arya giving the city guards a tounge-lashing had me smiling. Sassy little wench.

Lysa's introduction was fantastic. Creep-tastic! They sky cells lived up to my imagination. Also, did anyone else hear Tyrion saying to Bronn 'I like you' after their exchange after the fight or did I make that up? Didn't see anyone else mention it even though there has been talk of their building a relationship between the two in just a few lines.

[DurararaFTW]

So anyway, I was thinking about what Luwin says. Bran is being set up to have a bow and arrows handy when he goes riding next episode (or the one after that), you guys think he'll take one down? Bran getting his first kill before Arya seems wrong. Even if she does owe him one after that scene in episode 1.

[enigma]

So anyway, I was thinking about what Luwin says. Bran is being set up to have a bow and arrows handy when he goes riding next episode (or the one after that), you guys think he'll take one down? Bran getting his first kill before Arya seems wrong. Even if she does owe him one after that scene in episode 1.

It was Theon they were showing using the bow and arrows, and likely it will be Theon who makes the killing shot. Bran will probably be testing his new horse harness when he gets kidnapped.

[smegma]

I gotta admit, I thought the Renly and Loras scene was going to be more lewd and gratuitous, more like Aiden Gillen's first sex scene in Queer as Folk when he's licking a guy's ass. This was much more tasteful, intimate, and with the exception of the sucking noise, very subdued.

Also love this tweet from Jon Favreau: Let's save some time and give Peter Dinklage the Emmy now.

That's two awesome tweets from him! :thumbsup:

[DurararaFTW]

It was Theon they were showing using the bow and arrows, and likely it will be Theon who makes the killing shot. Bran will probably be testing his new horse harness when he gets kidnapped.

I was talking about what Luwin was saying.

Bran: I'll never shoot from a bow again

Luwin: says who?

Bran: I can't use a bow sitting down.

Luwin: The Dothraki learn to shoot bows from horseback. Why can't you?

Bran: Great idea

Next episode he'll be out on horseback. I know he'll get kipnapped and shoot free by Theon, but there are like 7 dudes. Grey Wind and Summer mauls a few, Robb takes one down, Osha survives.

[Vorg]

No Thoros of Myr, No Beric Dondarrion. Why am I watching this show, again? Oh yes, Arya chasing kitty cats around the castle. Why not just an hour of that?

[sennahoj]

No Thoros of Myr, No Beric Dondarrion. Why am I watching this show, again? Oh yes, Arya chasing kitty cats around the castle. Why not just an hour of that?

I agree, they should have introduced Thoros and Beric, because they become so important in the later books. overall, I was a bit disappointed about the lack of knights at the Hand's Tournament. I understand that they have to watch the budget, but if you build an entire set for the tournament, why do we only see THREE knights jousting and "Don't-call-me-Ser" Sandor crossing blades with his brother. If you don't have enough people for the melee, at least have two stunt guys don different suits of armour and coat of arms a couple of times, so we at least get the impression that this is a tournament.