[BOOK SPOILERS] EP105 Discussion

[Lord Godric]

That depends. If you're talking about the first shot where we see it, I didn't like it at all, it was over the top and fake looking. Everything after was brilliant, particularly the view from the sky cell and then the view OF the sky cells.

Fair enough, and I agree. The outside of the Eyrie, I thought was poor. But the high hall and the sky cells were spot on.

[Lord Godric]

Who went down on whom?

Regardless, Renly was the one in the episode saying how he couldn't be king because of Stannis and he wasn't a real warrior, but Loras was the one telling Renly all he could do and being rather forceful about it.

[TrueMetis]

So apparently Ned is a better swordsman in the TV adaption.

The conversation between Robert and Cersei was just weird.

And the Dragon skull, holy shit that was big I guess when they said you could ride a horse down its throat in the books it didn't get across so well.

[Tacye]

No. And I totally did the geek thing and just checked Arya's chapter. There's no mention of Balerion there.

It's not there b/c Balerion being the wicked black tom-cat was inferred, rather like Renly and Loras' relationship.

Arya chases around the oldest, meanest cat in the Red Keep, a raggedy-eared black tom. She finally manages to catch him and kisses him on the top of his head.

Later (I think it was Varys?) refers back to Rhaegar's daughter having a little black kitten that she had named Balerion. But it wasn't a dragon, it was a kitten, and it couldn't save her.

I daresay the tabby was what was available to the film makers that day in the way of stunt-cats.

Whatever. I just liked that bit in the books.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Ill-informed or just missed what I guess was so obvious to most of you. Now that I think about it, Margarey being a virgin after her wedding night with Renly makes sense now. I guess I didn't pick up on that after reading the books. I did a google search on it and it appears I wasn't alone. I don't follow GRRM interviews so I wasn't aware that he confirmed those characters are gay. Might need to read the books again.

Don't feel bad, it is really not obvious to a lot of us until you go back and look for it. Then it is obvious and cool how subtle it was. I don't like how the show is handling it though.

The last scene was awful compared to the book. My friend and I pulled the book out right when it was done, and the nerds we are he read it out loud to us and it was far more gripping in his monotone rendition. Jory was a badass, killing Lannisters as he fell and Jaime not dirtying his hands at all.

I get why they had Jaime do it and all, his character in the show is being set up differently and I'm okay with that, but I think the menace of Jaime is missing. When he came for characters in the books, I was legitimately worried about their fates. Jaime should have shown his amazing fighting abilities--not just a quick shot to the eye. I don't know.

I am leaning on this episode being very disappointing.

What happened to the fanfare of the tournament? I feel like Sansa was watching all the great knights ride in--asking who they were as they passed. Beric Dondarrion, Loras, and so on. All the great "sers" of the realm. But on screen it translated into about two fights. Very disappointing.

[Xenophon]

Most of what I thought has already been said. Overall, it was really good--interesting change of pace, more exciting than previous episodes.

I really like what they're doing with Cat and Tyrion, showing her clearly having some doubts about his guilt--was this in the books?

I also thought the Loras/Renly scene was very clever--just like the Viserys/Doreah scene, they fit a lot of exposition into the scene, but kept it interesting by how the information conveyed related to the current relationship between the characters.

Theon felt oddly out of place in the episode. Anyone have an idea why they put him in this one?

A few nits to pick:

I don't like how the did the fight with Jaime and Ned. I understand they needed to make Ned put up a fight, Jaime is his vast superior as I understand in the books. Also Loras looks....soft. He's supposed to be a great knight, and the dude they cast for him is in terrible shape. Nitpicking.

Agreed on both points. Loras isn't in terrible shape, but he does not look like a man who practices the art of war daily.

Who went down on whom?

But who turned the bear into a twink?

Fair enough, and I agree. The outside of the Eyrie, I thought was poor. But the high hall and the sky cells were spot on.

Yeah. I felt the same.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Yeah.

Uh, Rainbow Guard. Duh.

Hahahahahaa...I never caught that. What a glaring hint.

[Mya Stone]

This thread has far too much cat-discussion in it. ( Why yea, I'm a dog person, how could you tell?) :P

Firstly, to whomever said that male gentalia never looks good on tv, I ask - when exacly does it look good?

Secondly, I missed Mya Stone as well, but showing the ride up to the Eyrie would have eaten up precious dollars and minutes.

And lastly, I loved all the little foreshadowings we got of Ned's fate. When speaking to Barristan, Ned stated that his wife was also glad they never met in the field of battle, since being a widow wouldn't become her. And the Robert stated he wanted to behead Ned himself, which I thought was ironic.

If it wasn't so damn late, I'd add more, but that's all I can muster right now.

[Jaime L]

Fair enough, and I agree. The outside of the Eyrie, I thought was poor. But the high hall and the sky cells were spot on.

Honestly, I thought the Eyrie was incredible.

Had no idea how the show would capture the feel of the place from the books, but this exceeded all expectations. I mean, sure it was CGI, but I was pretty sure they weren't going to build an impregnable citadel on an unreachable mountain just for filming. Everything about the Eyrie and the Arryns was spot on IMO.

Anyway thought all the disparate plotlines the show was weaving really came together in this episode. Probably helped to have no Jon or Dany diversion. Just keep it on the heart of the drama which really was Kings Landing and the Eyrie.

Thought the most interesting factor of the series is the omniscient viewpoint we now have. We see Renly and Loras, Varys and LF, Robert and Cersei having frank, meaningful conversations about subjects that take books to glean out because we're limited by our first person narrators. It's a real interesting gambit, to lay all the cards out on the table, really allow us to empathize with all the major players from the get go as opposed to halfway through Storm of Swords. So far, though, think it's both nuanced and effective. But we still get the satisfying moments of LF being supremely cunning and shifty and Jaime being appropriately vile as he jams a knife into Jory's eye.

Brilliant episode. Really think the episode can and should serve as the moment where it really starts to click for non-readers.

[Myrish swan]

I liked this episode; I continue to be impressed with the kid who plays Bran. A fantastic actor.

In that vein, I'm going to voice a totally unpopular opinion and say... I am not actually bowled over by the girl who plays Arya's acting. She is good-- very good, for her age-- however, considering the amount of praise she's been getting, I'd expect her to be a bit better. She seems a bit wooden at times, and at others, her line delivery seems a bit... off, somehow. The same is true of Sophie Turner as Sansa, however, she has certainly been criticized plenty thus far. However, I thought her facial expressions at the tournament were pretty well done (her line delivery... not so much.)

Tyrion was awesome... though he has many of the same lines in the book, I get a far different feeling from Peter Dinklige than I did from book Tyrion. The passive aggressiveness, spite, and misogyny are simply not there. In the book, I found his line, "I'm willing if she is," sort of creepy. (And yes, I do realize it was a joke and meant to be funny. However, I also couldn't help but feel that, in the book version, Tyrion was bringing Cat down a peg, and sort of degrading her in front of Bronn in making that comment. It's like he wants to bond with Bronn and the other dudes there by saying creepy, sexual stuff about Cat. Yuck.) However, here, the line was delivered very lightly; it seemed as though Tyrion was talking to himself more than anything; more or less saying "yeah, that's about the last thing in the world that is gonna happen."

Once again, Mark Addy really impressed me as King Robert. The scene with Ned was... poignant, to say the least. By the look on Ned's face, you could see his mingled disappointment and sorrow over what his once great friend had become. Though Robert's way more of a creep here than in the books, I feel for him far more here. In the books, though "nicer," he never really felt like a fully realized character to me. That was partially because he was very much in the mold of the "jolly, washed up old soldier" archetype; partially because (I suspect) GRRM took pains to make him far more sympathetic than Cersei (whom he obviously wanted to be the clear cut villain.)

And speaking of Cersei... I don't get all the hate for making her a fairly more complex character than in the books. All of the stuff that's been highlighted in the series thus far? Cersei being forced to witness her husband philandering; Robert being intentionally cruel to Cersei; Cersei having to grit her teeth and smile through a miserable marriage? ALL of these things are true of the Cersei in the books, too. However, GRRM does everything to draw attention away from this; lest a few readers actually sympathize with this woman he loathes so much.

In the books, GRRM's hatred of her is so strong, its ridiculous. Still, in the first three books, despite doing everything he can to manipulate readers to hate her, he managed to draw a believable and complex portrait of Cersei.And then in AFFC, he pretty much destroys the character. He takes a complex villain, and turns her into a shrieking caricature. It's as though he takes every possible excuse for Cersei, ambiguity about her motives, or possible justifications for her behavior and says-- "nope, not true. She's just a total evil bitch, with no redeeming qualities. Okay?" Seriously-- he takes pains to show that being married to an abusive drunk did no real damage to her, since she was a murdering sociopath at age 9 (despite the fact that the whole murdering Melara story makes NO SENSE for purely practical reasons.)

He also makes sure that its clear that she doesn't love Jaime, is blatantly cruel for no reason (neither of which appeared to be true before. Cersei could certainly be cruel, but there were always reasons behind her cruelty.) And of course, lets not forget that she does not really love her kids at all. Despite ample evidence in the first three books that she truly did.

At any rate, I have no idea why people insist on seeing the caricature of AFFC rather than an actual, believable character. Even villains suffer; even villains have reasons for being the way they are. Is it so hard to believe that Cersei has suffered, that, like nearly everyone else, the things she has gone through have had some influence on shaping who she eventually became.

In addition, I can appreciate how the show writers do not delight in saying creepy, offensive sexual stuff about Cersei. That is another thing that I’m not crazy about in the books.

[AutomatedTeller]

Liked a lot of it. I actually liked the Robert/Cersei scene - I thought it was well acted - though I don't know that it should have been there.

Lyssa breast-feeding the kid, though... that kind of squicked me. That whole scene was vastly creepier that way.

Arya is pretty awesome in these.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Liked the episode.

I enjoyed that the character development is really becoming fuller and we're seeing that all the characters are shades of grey. For example, while in earlier episodes he seemed like a decent guy, we really got a glimpse today of what a total fucking scumbag Littlefinger is. I mean, really - child prostitution, amputee prostitution, murder and necrophilia, slavery. What a winner.

Now that we're seeing Theon more, I'm glad we were introduced to one of his biggest character flaws - the absolutely horrible way he treats women. His character makes my skin crawl. Like crawling with maggots. Ugh.

Nevertheless, way to go Alfie Allen for being the first guy to go full frontal in the series! Mad props! :cheers:

I was also feeling the change in pace. The episode felt much more coherent without flying off to so many locations.

[Myrish swan]

I have a theory that they're making her more sympathetic so that when it's revealed that her kids are Jaime's AND she killed her first born AND she has the rest of Robert's bastards put to death it really flips the switch on her.

Re: the kids being Jaime’s—I’ve got to ask, does this really make Cersei straight up evil? Why should she be faithful to Robert, honestly? Why should she have the children of a man she loathes, a man who has made her miserable? Having kids with Jaime is sick, weird, and vengeful, but not pure proof that Cersei is PURE EVIL, as you seem to be implying.

Re: putting the bastards to death—definitely something that is evil, horrible, and unforgivable. However, in the books, she did that only to protect her own children. Which brings me to…

Cersei “killing her firstborn”, as you say. Now, I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, and I’ve come to the conclusion that yeah, the show probably is going to go this route. And their main motive will probably be to make sure that viewers see that Cersei is the truly evil one; Robert and Ned are good. Otherwise, even if she had had children with her brother, and killed Robert’s bastards to protect said children, I suspect some viewers might still sympathize with her. Or, if not sympathize, than some might at least pose the question: was Cersei really so much more evil than her husband, King Robert? After all, he did hit and abuse her. And all of the evil stuff she did, she did for her children.

Obviously, asking such questions would ruin the message GRRM wants to send with Cersei. It would also shake Cersei’s place as the villain of the series, something that GRRM has been clear about from the beginning. So yeah, they probably are going to throw Cersei murdering her firstborn in there.

However, I think this is a heavy handed and stupid move, and I truly hope they do not go this route (though I strongly suggest they will.) This is because it totally goes against Cersei’s character as she was presented in the first three books. As with GRRM’s “Cersei” chapters in AFFC, making Cersei kill her firstborn is making Cersei act out of character for the sake of showing her as unforgivable, pure evil, etc. However in the books (and here, thus far) Cersei loves her children and would do anything for them. I cannot picture her murdering her already born child, even her child by Robert. (And yes, I realize that she did drink the moon tea to get rid of Robert’s baby in the books. However, aborting a fetus that is a few months old is totally different from killing an already born baby.)

[Jaime L]

Lyssa breast-feeding the kid, though... that kind of squicked me. That whole scene was vastly creepier that way.

I wonder who volunteered their kid to play little Robert Arryn.

Cause, I dunno, of nightmarish roles kid actors have to play that they may never live down, getting to play a sickly, hyper, still breastfeeding 8 year old is pretty near tops on the list.

[Trebla]

Ya know, I'm getting to the point where I don't blame tv Lancel for giving Robert the spiked wine. After the way Robert treats him, I'd wanna brain him with his own hammer. You just KNOW robert makes him wear that hat!

[Xenophon]

I liked this episode; I continue to be impressed with the kid who plays Bran. A fantastic actor.

In that vein, I'm going to voice a totally unpopular opinion and say... I am not actually bowled over by the girl who plays Arya's acting. She is good-- very good, for her age-- however, considering the amount of praise she's been getting, I'd expect her to be a bit better. She seems a bit wooden at times, and at others, her line delivery seems a bit... off, somehow.

Yeah, she wasn't as good this episode. And the kid playing Bran is doing a great job with very few lines.

[Xenophon]

I wonder who volunteered their kid to play little Robert Arryn.

Cause, I dunno, of nightmarish roles kid actors have to play that they may never live down, getting to play a sickly, hyper, still breastfeeding 8 year old is pretty near tops on the list.

I know! I could barely appreciate the scene, I was so creeped out on that kid's behalf. I'm sure he tries to spin it as cool with his friends, boobs in his face and all, but that is one seriously disturbing role to play.

[Myrish swan]

LNow that we're seeing Theon more, I'm glad we were introduced to one of his biggest character flaws - the absolutely horrible way he treats women.

Yeah. Here, like in the books, he makes Tyrion's weird, master/ servant plus fantasy girlfriend relationship with Shae look almost decent. And that's saying a lot.

Liked the episode.

I enjoyed that the character development is really becoming fuller and we're seeing that all the characters are shades of grey. For example, while in earlier episodes he seemed like a decent guy, we really got a glimpse today of what a total fucking scumbag Littlefinger is. I mean, really - child prostitution, amputee prostitution, murder and necrophilia, slavery. What a winner.

Yeah, i'm loving their portrayal of Littlefinger thus far. In the books, it's always seemed to me that GRRM identifies with LF a bit too much; if Tyrion is his alter ego, Petyr Baelish is his id. He constantly voices all the more nasty, inappropriate thoughts that GRRM obviously does not want to alienate readers with by placing in Tyrion's mouth.

However, as a result I think GRRM has always over indulged LF. He's every bit as bad as Cersei, but he's portrayed as a badass, a "magnificent bastard," while she is degraded as a stupid, worthless she devil. So I'm glad to see here that the TV writers are not afraid to show how truly unsavory LF is. No highlighting of his brilliance, no effort to make his evil deeds appear "badass," just a presentation of him as he is.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Oh, I forgot to say something about Loras. I hate it when people complain about actors not physically matching the characters, but I'll do so now because I can't get beyond this one thing.

It actually made it difficult for me to watch the manscaping scene because Loras was so obviously not an athelete and when they talked about what a great sword fighter he was I just couldn't be convinced by the scene. I like what they're doing with his character, but I will never be able to buy into the protrayal of Loras because they didn't even try to make him appear to be a fighter. And he's one of the most famous swordsmen that we'll meet!

I think it bothered me so much because it was such a sharp contrast with the other shirtless scene - Theon, who was all muscle-y.

[Jaime Lannister]

Oh, I forgot to say something about Loras. I hate it when people complain about actors not physically matching the characters, but I'll do so now because I can't get beyond this one thing.

It actually made it difficult for me to watch the manscaping scene because Loras was so obviously not an athlete and when they talked about what a great sword fighter he was I just couldn't be convinced by the scene. I like what they're doing with his character, but I will never be able to buy into the protrayal of Loras because they didn't even try to make him appear to be a fighter. And he's one of the most famous swordsmen that we'll meet!

I think it bothered me so much because it was such a sharp contrast with the other shirtless scene - Theon, who was all muscle-y.

I get what you're saying. I certainly wouldn't feel intimidated by a shirtless Loras coming at me. But he's supposed to be what, 17, in the books? Maybe He's 18 or so for the show. I always got the impression his skill was based on speed and agility, not brute strength. If Arya can stab and kill grown men at arms, I think Loras can manage. But still, they could have given him at least a Jon Snow type build I guess...