The Long Price Quartet

[Shryke]

Without the first two (or the first one at least), you miss all the characterization that builds the base for the rest of the series.

Plus A Shadow in Summer is an awesome book. I often think people don't like it for one of the reasons I do: that it's not a book with huge world-ending epic stuff. The stakes are high, but in a distant muted way and the whole story is very low-key.

[Tears of Lys]

I can't understand how people can pick certain pieces of this series and say, THAT was the best, or THIS one was the best. It's all part of a whole. It's like looking at the left eye of the Mona Lisa and saying, Now THAT'S where DaVinci was really on his game, but that hand over here - eh.

it's all of a piece. :dunno:

[Jaxom 1974]

I can't understand how people can pick certain pieces of this series and say, THAT was the best, or THIS one was the best. It's all part of a whole. It's like looking at the left eye of the Mona Lisa and saying, Now THAT'S where DaVinci was really on his game, but that hand over here - eh.

it's all of a piece. :dunno:

While I agree with you in principal, I can't help but think that Star Wars Episodes I - III are part of a greater whole...

In any case, I'm still digging in on Book 4, but it's very good thus far.

[Marcus Cicero]

I can't understand how people can pick certain pieces of this series and say, THAT was the best, or THIS one was the best. It's all part of a whole. It's like looking at the left eye of the Mona Lisa and saying, Now THAT'S where DaVinci was really on his game, but that hand over here - eh.

it's all of a piece. :dunno:

Comparing comparisons between one painting and a book series split in 4 doesn't really work. It would work better if Da Vinci did the Mona Lisa as part of a comic, and you could say, "Oh, that panel where she has that little smile? That's the best one." When you have a series of books, written at different times and published at separate times, it's pretty normal to compare and prefer, especially if each one has a beginning, middle, and end.

[dornish prince]

i read the first book in the sequence a few months past and i enjoyed it immensely. if it trends for me the way it seems to have for others, i will drop dead from an awesome overdose after finishing the 4th book. i can hardly wait. ;)

[Tears of Lys]

While I agree with you in principal, I can't help but think that Star Wars Episodes I - III are part of a greater whole...

In any case, I'm still digging in on Book 4, but it's very good thus far.

Oh, Jesus, Mary, Joseph... now you've just ruined not only my original thought, you've most likely ruined my dinner. You're not comparing anything in the Long Price to George Lucas' debacle, are you? Please say it aint so!

Comparing comparisons between one painting and a book series split in 4 doesn't really work. It would work better if Da Vinci did the Mona Lisa as part of a comic, and you could say, "Oh, that panel where she has that little smile? That's the best one." When you have a series of books, written at different times and published at separate times, it's pretty normal to compare and prefer, especially if each one has a beginning, middle, and end.

I can understand where you're coming from. I just don't see it that way. Besides, each book of LPQ doesn't really have an ending (except the last.) They flow into each other, just as the seasons do. Each book, IMO, builds on the previous one and creates a beautiful whole.

[Shryke]

Book 1 and 2 are pretty self contained.

[Durckad]

On the other, I don't think An Autumn War or Price of Spring would have stood as well as stand-alone books. How much do y'all think the "lesser" first couple books are necessary for the second two books to function? Did anyone start the series at Autumn War, and if you did, what was that like?

I couldn't imagine starting with An Autumn War without the previous books as building blocks, let alone Price of Spring. They're all essential to the progression of the series.

I can understand where you're coming from. I just don't see it that way. Besides, each book of LPQ doesn't really have an ending (except the last.) They flow into each other, just as the seasons do. Each book, IMO, builds on the previous one and creates a beautiful whole.

Each book is part of a greater whole, but each book also has its own, self-contained plotline which is resolved at the end. I'd argue they all stand-alone much more than, say, a Wheel of Time book or an aSoIaF book.

[frodostark]

This is something I struggle with, actually. One of the things I hear a lot (not only on the Long Price books) is that my books in series get better as they go (See: Black Sun's Daughter). On one hand, I hope that means I'm getting better. A Shadow in Summer was my first published book, and I sure *hope* I've gotten better, right? :)

On the other, I don't think An Autumn War or Price of Spring would have stood as well as stand-alone books. How much do y'all think the "lesser" first couple books are necessary for the second two books to function? Did anyone start the series at Autumn War, and if you did, what was that like?

I think the series works so well because it builds on previous books. Summer is my least favorite, but I enjoyed it when reading it. Winter broadens the scope and adds to what came before. Then Autumn and Spring are just a one-two suckerpunch of awesome that only works because of what has come before. For an analogy you'll appreciate, Season 2 of Babylon 5 is some pretty good scifi TV, but the foundations laid during it are part of what makes Seasons 3 and 4 some of the best stuff ever done. I feel the Long Price is rather similar...the buildup is good, but the payoffs are simply amazing.

It also helps that the books aren't gargantuan doorstoppers...even if Wheel of Time has the most epic ending known to literature, I'm not sure I could bring myself to slog through everything else that would have to be read to get there.

I can't understand how people can pick certain pieces of this series and say, THAT was the best, or THIS one was the best. It's all part of a whole. It's like looking at the left eye of the Mona Lisa and saying, Now THAT'S where DaVinci was really on his game, but that hand over here - eh.

it's all of a piece. :dunno:

I think this happens because so many of these series aren't really of a piece, especially not in the way Long Price is.

[Errant Bard]

On the other, I don't think An Autumn War or Price of Spring would have stood as well as stand-alone books. How much do y'all think the "lesser" first couple books are necessary for the second two books to function? Did anyone start the series at Autumn War, and if you did, what was that like?

While I started the series with a Shadow in Summer, I must disagree with others in the thread and say that I think An Autumn War would work just as well as a standalone. It would feel weirder, since a reader wouldn't already know the poses or the world, but it's something a first reader would have to assimilate anyway. In each instalment, with the time skips, the story is self-contained with enough of character changes that previous introductions become somewhat moot. Eiah in 4 is not Eiah in 3, same for Otah, same for Maati. The part that touched me most were always unrelated to any buildup in the previous books. I would have cried no matter what, at the end of book 4, I'm certain of it, for example.

So I feel, though I cannot be certain, that saying that reading the first books is mandatory is like saying that reading a prequel on Robert's Rebellion is necessary to enjoy ASOIAF.

I can't understand how people can pick certain pieces of this series and say, THAT was the best, or THIS one was the best. It's all part of a whole. It's like looking at the left eye of the Mona Lisa and saying, Now THAT'S where DaVinci was really on his game, but that hand over here - eh.

Hmm, why are people usually going on about the smile and the eyes, then? It can be part of a whole while having specific feature. I don't think a painting (or, comes to this, a face -"your smile is your best feature", anyone?-) is a good analogy though. A story is told over a length of time, moments, situations, segue into others, so if we had to use a visual analogy, a movie would be better. In a movie each image, each sequence is part of a whole, but it's not like some of the most heard criticism are not "the first/middle/last part sucked" or you cannot go "I preferred that scene".

[kiyoaki]

IMO the first novel is probably the most self-contained, while the others have better cutting-of points than most books in fantasy series, but profit greatly from the build-up. As someone mentioned above, Summer is a pretty subdued book for a fantasy novel, but (or perhaps because of that) succeeds admirably in setting the tone for the quasi-oriental society and gives us a great introduction to the main characters. I don't think Otah's fate in book four would have impacted me quite that much if I hadn't "known" him since his childhood.

[Marcus Cicero]

I can understand where you're coming from. I just don't see it that way. Besides, each book of LPQ doesn't really have an ending (except the last.) They flow into each other, just as the seasons do. Each book, IMO, builds on the previous one and creates a beautiful whole.

But you can still compare parts within a whole. Writing quality is almost never entirely constant, especially over the course of a series.

[Jaxom 1974]

Oh, Jesus, Mary, Joseph... now you've just ruined not only my original thought, you've most likely ruined my dinner. You're not comparing anything in the Long Price to George Lucas' debacle, are you? Please say it aint so!

Goodness no! However, I was trying to point out a flaw in your logic (as I saw it), but others seem to have explained it better than I could.

That being said, on a side note, short of super quality animation, I'm not sure I'd ever want to see LPQ come to the screen, either televison or movies...I can just envision some Hollywood writer going, "15 years between books? Well, we'll cut that part out and just have them all occur within the space of a couple years!"...

[Errant Bard]

The best feature, in my opinion, beyond a consistency in characterisation and worldbuilding, is that nothing is actually frozen, doomed to stay the same from beginning to end. That is almost always the case with fantasy characters, and some readers even crave this status quo. There is no status quo in the Long Price.

To illustrate, I have seen many discussion about how Arya "didn't lose her starkness" (or could not/should not), or, ever more egregious, how meeting some guy at ten means marriage and being a couple ever after... it all refers to the idea that a character is monolithic and change, growth even, is bad. You set the parameters of characterisation, and they are final. In comparison, I never saw anyone even think about how Otah would lose (or not) his Machi-ness, despite undergoing more change in one book than most fantasy heroes ever see (among other things, really breaking up with a lover), and this applies for everything, and increasingly as the series goes on.

[Tears of Lys]

I can see where, for most people, my comparing LPQ to a painting might fail. And looking at each book as a standalone is something which, strictly speaking, can be done. I will, however, continue to think of LPQ as a beautiful piece of artwork which is created in layers through which a reader's understanding, like light, filters. I enjoyed each book equally well, is what it comes down to, I guess, in the end.

[Starkess]

I actually accidentally started reading An Autumn War right after A Shadow in Summer (I assumed it was the next one based on seasons!). I think I got about 20% into it before I was sure that I had skipped something. At first I just assumed we had skipped ahead to the next "important" part of his life, with just a few hints and references to what had got him there. So I don't think it would be totally un-doable to start with An Autumn War.

[Starbuck]

I thought the third book was really very exciting, in big parts due to the fact that you already knew so many places and characters and did not want them to meet a bad end. The ending was excellent as well, and it was surprising which is always a big asset :-) So to me, "Autumn" was the best of the lot.

On the other hand, I'm totally stuck in the fourth book. It felt very anticlimatic to me from the beginning, and the fact that there are only two point of view characters does not help at all. I especially don't care at all for the Maati story. So I'm at the book now for over six weeks, and only halfway through it - and I just don't feel like picking it up again.

[wolverine]

I actually accidentally started reading An Autumn War right after A Shadow in Summer (I assumed it was the next one based on seasons!). I think I got about 20% into it before I was sure that I had skipped something. At first I just assumed we had skipped ahead to the next "important" part of his life, with just a few hints and references to what had got him there. So I don't think it would be totally un-doable to start with An Autumn War.

I have Autumn War on my TBR even though I have only read The Price of Spring since I made the same mistake. I never started reading it though. Now I can get the omnibus with TPOS and ABIW for the same price just A Betrayal in Winter. At least it is actually affordable now. For a long time ABIW was twenty bucks or more.

[Lyanna Stark]

Without the first two (or the first one at least), you miss all the characterization that builds the base for the rest of the series.

Plus A Shadow in Summer is an awesome book. I often think people don't like it for one of the reasons I do: that it's not a book with huge world-ending epic stuff. The stakes are high, but in a distant muted way and the whole story is very low-key.

:agree:

I think this is why I loved it so much. You don't always need huge sword fights and massive blasts of magic to create conflict, tension and lots of emotions. In fact, sometimes the sword waving and the fireball hurling can get in the way of character development and meaningful plot.

The best feature, in my opinion, beyond a consistency in characterisation and worldbuilding, is that nothing is actually frozen, doomed to stay the same from beginning to end. That is almost always the case with fantasy characters, and some readers even crave this status quo. There is no status quo in the Long Price.

To illustrate, I have seen many discussion about how Arya "didn't lose her starkness" (or could not/should not), or, ever more egregious, how meeting some guy at ten means marriage and being a couple ever after... it all refers to the idea that a character is monolithic and change, growth even, is bad. You set the parameters of characterisation, and they are final. In comparison, I never saw anyone even think about how Otah would lose (or not) his Machi-ness, despite undergoing more change in one book than most fantasy heroes ever see (among other things, really breaking up with a lover), and this applies for everything, and increasingly as the series goes on.

Absolutely. This is most obvious with Mati and Otah who we follow for such a long time. None of them are remotely the same as they were in the beginning once we reach the end. Arya and Sansa Stark are perhaps the ASOIAF equivalent of characters that develop a lot through the story, but despite this a lot of readers seem to want/assume that they should stay the same, which is puzzling. Or that they are losing their "Starkiness" (whatever that may be).

The lack of status quo and the constant character development are great features which really are a treat if you have been subjected to a lot of the standard fare in SFF.

[Jaxom 1974]

I can see where, for most people, my comparing LPQ to a painting might fail. And looking at each book as a standalone is something which, strictly speaking, can be done. I will, however, continue to think of LPQ as a beautiful piece of artwork which is created in layers through which a reader's understanding, like light, filters. I enjoyed each book equally well, is what it comes down to, I guess, in the end.

Please don't let my commentary on your comparison in any way make is sound like I don't agree with you in the end, ToL! I haven't finished Spring yet, but I'm confident in the end result based on what I've read thus far...