[ADwD Spoilers] The Lost Lord

[Jon AS]

True, but Connington wouldn't have had to make the leap from 2 year old to adult, but from 2 year old to 4 or 5 year old, if I remember the timeline correctly. That doesn't mean a switch is impossible, but for Connington, he just had to extrapolate from and infant to a young child.

Actually it's hard to tell when exactly Connington would last have had a chance to look at the real Aegon (and memorise his features). He was lord of Griffon's Roost, then he was Hand, charged with ending the rebellion, then he was sent into exile. The last time he spend any meaningful time with Rhaegar's kids might have been at Harrenhal, if he ever did that.

I don't think it would require more than superficial resemblance to convince him, provided he was willing to be convinced (which he obviously was).

[Lummel]

well damn me, I'm as blind as Prince Rhaegar on the castle tower - totally missed Jon connington's sexuality. Well spotted!

Yet every time we meet Aegon he seems less. At least less than what Rhaegar was. I remember when Jon remembers Rhaegar saying something along the lines of "your lands are beautiful" with his hair blowing in the wind. Just after Aegon says, "I like your castle". Aegon is vain and despite all his training, not the brightest egg in the basket. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he was the mummer's dragon meant to sew more discord in Westeros.

Yes definitely, that taken along with how Varys describes his Targaryen prince to Kevan makes me doubt that Young Griff is Aegon. The half-maester's knowledge of history is less than Tyrion's - ok Tyrion is an obsessive reader, but being able to evaluate your sources seems pretty basic, the 'Septa' seems...unlike all the other Septas we've seen so far, Duck the weapons Master - hard to believe that Varys couldn't have found an actual Targaryen loyalist and knight. What we see of young griff seems close to, but doesn't actually marry with, Varys' glowing description.

So far I've thought that Varys took care of the details and wasn't a man to delude himself, but if he really thinks that this roughly educated lad is going to pass as Rhaegar's son, then that's got to be wrong. Alternatively Young griff is a decoy, maybe for Dany, maybe for a real Aegon/alternative Targaryen claiment.

[Datepalm]

Ellaria is bisexual, yes, but yano, we don't really see much of her.

She was pretty cool for the little we did see though. Stepping into Catelyns shoes a bit. (Unless she's actually just trying to distract them while she plans some kind of vastly more horrific vengeance, come to think of it.)

So far I've thought that Varys took care of the details and wasn't a man to delude himself, but if he really thinks that this roughly educated lad is going to pass as Rhaegar's son, then that's got to be wrong.

Thats what struck me as really odd, that Varys would get all starry eyed and superlative like that about anything. One option is that he really had a considerable role in raising him and simply has some paternal sentiments towards the kid, and so views him in the best light.

Another...well, I think my pet theory/prediction is shaping up to be that he really is Aegon (or that we never find out one way or another), but that the 12 step program for creating the perfect monarch doesn't quite work out the way anyone expects it anyway.

[moffy]

I missed it, too.

On the wider topic of gay characters, when Xaro first showed up I thought he was the pale mare. Oops.

[BarrileteCosmico]

I think some are being too harsh on his education. Yes, Tyrion knows more than his Maester, but if Tyrion is the standard he is to be compared to I can't imagine what Robert was. Compared to Tommen, Aegon is well educated, well trained in arms and has 'lived' a life of fear, hunger, etc. Varys is not wrong in those compliments.

Also, being able to double check your sources in Westeros is not pretty straight forward. You need access to books, which back in those days were a luxury. It would be hard for a 'common folk' halfmaester to get access to these.

Aegon is Aegon, and if he's not the only person who would be able to tell so is Varys, and he seems a rather strong Targaryen loyalist. From the POV, Connington clearly thinks he's the real deal.

[Dragonfish]

Aegon is Aegon, and if he's not the only person who would be able to tell so is Varys, and he seems a rather strong Targaryen loyalist. From the POV, Connington clearly thinks he's the real deal.

We don't know that Varys is a Targ loyalist. And no one is disputing that Connington thinks he's the real deal, it's just that it doesn't matter given that Connington wasn't involved in spiriting Aegon away in the first place.

[QuietColours]

I don't understand this point. People knew that Aegon had the fair hair of the Targaryens, so all Varys had to do was find some fair-haired baby in the Free Cities (where people of Valyrian stock are apparently a dime a dozen), raise him to think he was some prince believed to be dead, then hand him off to Jon Connington at some point. Not hard at all.

Is infant hair and eye color a constant trait in Martin's world? In ours, it's very common for someone to have very fair hair as an infant and toddler and have it slowly darken to brown through childhood. Babies often have very blue or grey eyes (including blues verging on a dark purple, especially if that's what you're expecting to see), only to have the eye color change when they're about a year old. If this is true in Westeros, it increases the risk of using a false baby to raise as Aegon--it would be a lot harder to explain if the fair haired, blue-almost-violet eyed baby turned out to have curly dark hair and brown eyes by the time the boy hit puberty.

[Sega AM2]

Connington should lose himself in the next battle, wander off in the woods, and cut off his infected fingers. If he cuts off his fingers and lies that it was a battle scar it masks his grey scale infection and possibly cures it if he hacks enough flesh off. I was surprised he was so committed to keeping his infected flesh even though it is certain death for him. Surely he'd rather lose a few fingers than his life? I guess if he truly lives two years with his infection then it is acceptable for him, providing that Aegon is crowned (and not with molten gold), but if he dies before then it would be a waste.

In Victarion's chapter he is suffering from an infected hand wound as well from poison. He says he would rather die than lose the hand though. Fortunately Victarion gets really lucky when the Pink Priest heals him with magic fire. An interesting parallel, though Victarion gets extremely lucky in that his wounded hand is healed.

[Dragonfish]

Is infant hair and eye color a constant trait in Martin's world? In ours, it's very common for someone to have very fair hair as an infant and toddler and have it slowly darken to brown through childhood. Babies often have very blue or grey eyes (including blues verging on a dark purple, especially if that's what you're expecting to see), only to have the eye color change when they're about a year old. If this is true in Westeros, it increases the risk of using a false baby to raise as Aegon--it would be a lot harder to explain if the fair haired, blue-almost-violet eyed baby turned out to have curly dark hair and brown eyes by the time the boy hit puberty.

Not really that hard to explain given that his mother was a Martell.

And anyway, I don't think we've heard of anyone going from having Valyrian silver-gold hair to having dark brown hair. Not a realistic transformation, IMO.

Also, Martin can make genetics work however he wants in his world.

[The_TrueSteel]

Sorry if someone already asked this but...

Probably insignificant...but do you think Aerys found out about Connington's crush on Rhaegar and that may have contributed to his him taking his lands?

[Markus]

Actually it's hard to tell when exactly Connington would last have had a chance to look at the real Aegon (and memorise his features). He was lord of Griffon's Roost, then he was Hand, charged with ending the rebellion, then he was sent into exile. The last time he spend any meaningful time with Rhaegar's kids might have been at Harrenhal, if he ever did that.

Aegon wasn't yet born or even conceived at Harrenhal because he was about a year old when he was killed, which was about 2 years after Harrenhal. The last chance Connington might have had to see Aegon was shortly before he was exiled. Aegon would have been some months less than a year old.

We also know that Connington left the Golden Company on Varys' urging about twelve years ago, which would probably also have been the time he would have met Young Griff for the first time. As Aegon should be about 18 years old this means that Young Griff was probably 5-6 years old if he is Aegon or about that age plus minus a year or so if he isn't when Connington met him first.

[jxd]

Actually it's hard to tell when exactly Connington would last have had a chance to look at the real Aegon (and memorise his features). He was lord of Griffon's Roost, then he was Hand, charged with ending the rebellion, then he was sent into exile. The last time he spend any meaningful time with Rhaegar's kids might have been at Harrenhal, if he ever did that.

I don't think it would require more than superficial resemblance to convince him, provided he was willing to be convinced (which he obviously was).

Is hair and eye color the only thing people would notice? By this logic if two identical twins dyed their hair different color and put on colored contacts, they would pass for completely unrelated people? I think not.

When I see pictures of myself, sometimes I see my father, sometimes my mother. Connington knew Aegon's parents well enough and Aegon is at the similar age as Rhaegar when Connington knew him, there has to be some facial resemblance.

[Lord Varys]

We also have to keep in mind that Connington had to be at court when he was made hand - so he had a chance to hang around with Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon, and I'm sure he did.

Farther, we don't know at which point Aegon was introduced to his foster father. As long as we don't know that and only speculate that this coincides with Connington leaving the Golden Company we cannot be sure. Technically it could be possible that Varys delivered Aegon to Connington years before they decided that he had to fake his death. That could very well have been a later development which became necessary to minimize the risk of being detected. Robert and Jon Arryn would have kept a close eye on Connington the captain-general of the Golden Company, I guess.

And I must admit, I find it rather unbelievable that Connington would not look for Elia and Rhaegar in 'the lad' and could be fooled that easily. Children resemble their parents, this is, well, known, and Connington apparently knew the face of Rhaegar quite well. So 'Young Griff' can't be just a boy with valyrian hair and eyes. If his features do not resemble either Elia or Rhaegar, Connington would be suspicious. Especially if 'the lad' looked nothing at all like Rhaegar during his youth - that was the time, after all, when he fell in love with Rhaegar.

By the way, Aegon seems to resemble Egg in more than one capacity. He is a bold young boy, and we don't yet know what kind of King Aegon the Unlikely became in the end. Dunk and Egg certainly tried. So does Aegon. And he certainly understands the fact that a leader has to lead his troops into battle.

[bens]

We also have to keep in mind that Connington had to be at court when he was made hand - so he had a chance to hang around with Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon, and I'm sure he did.

Farther, we don't know at which point Aegon was introduced to his foster father. As long as we don't know that and only speculate that this coincides with Connington leaving the Golden Company we cannot be sure. Technically it could be possible that Varys delivered Aegon to Connington years before they decided that he had to fake his death. That could very well have been a later development which became necessary to minimize the risk of being detected. Robert and Jon Arryn would have kept a close eye on Connington the captain-general of the Golden Company, I guess.

And I must admit, I find it rather unbelievable that Connington would not look for Elia and Rhaegar in 'the lad' and could be fooled that easily. Children resemble their parents, this is, well, known, and Connington apparently knew the face of Rhaegar quite well. So 'Young Griff' can't be just a boy with valyrian hair and eyes. If his features do not resemble either Elia or Rhaegar, Connington would be suspicious. Especially if 'the lad' looked nothing at all like Rhaegar during his youth - that was the time, after all, when he fell in love with Rhaegar.

People see what they want to see. Jon Connington wants a chance to do justice for the man he loved, putting Rhaegar's son on the throne. Presented with a boy who looks reasonably enough like Rhaegar, it's hard to see him having doubts, or even considering the possibility that Aegon was not real. This is all he's living for, remember; he doesn't want to be suspicious that it's a lie.

Also, faces fade in memory, even those most beloved to us. Five or ten years after Rhaegar's death, when he likely would have been first presented with Aegon, Jon is not likely to have had a sharp enough recollection of Rhaegar to say that a child with similar features is not his son. Think of show!Robert, unable to recall Lyanna's face even though she was the love of his life.

[Lord Varys]

Show-Robert did not know Lyanna that well. Book-Connington did know Rhaegar. A false Aegon could not at all like Rhaegar. He might look handsome and all, but if his features do not resemble Rhaegar, even a man who is willfully blind might suspect something.

And for the record: The text does not indicate for me that Jon wants to avenge the man he loved. He wants justice and put Rhaegar's son back on the throne. I'm not sure that he was desperate enough all those years ago when they made the plan. Especially as this damned plan included years and years of waiting which would have discouraged rather than motivated a man who had only one hope left. Connington rather seems to be a man who has learned and trusts in patience. Or he was such a man until the Grey Scale thing happened. Now he has no time left. But back in Essos he apparently thought he had all the time in the world...

[Loras]

People see what they want to see. Jon Connington wants a chance to do justice for the man he loved, putting Rhaegar's son on the throne. Presented with a boy who looks reasonably enough like Rhaegar, it's hard to see him having doubts, or even considering the possibility that Aegon was not real. This is all he's living for, remember; he doesn't want to be suspicious that it's a lie.

I agree entirely!

Connington thinks back to the Battle of the Bells during his first chapter. He thinks about how he failed everyone; Elia, Rhaenys and his 'silver prince'.

I wonder how much Varys knew of Connington's love for Rhaegar? I prefer to think of Varys as one of the heroes of the piece. I think he knows how much Connington wants to atone for "killing" Rhaegar (he blames himself in 'The Griffin Reborn') and he has used this love to ensure that the Young Prince will be safe.

If Aegon isn't the real Aegon, and the real Aegon is somewhere else, why would Varys entrust the fake to Connington and not the real one? There is no way that Connington would betray the child of his 'silver prince'.

[jurble]

Man, I'm imagining somehow Aegon gets the Throne, and then Varys appears in the background cowled. He then says something along the lines of,"Once More Finally, the Sith House Blackfyre will rule the galaxy Westeros and there will be... peace." At which point Aegon will be like, "NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE."

edit: huh, this is the TLL thread, thought it was the Young Griff one. /shrug

[Masha]

I predict a massive wave of Jon/Jon fanfic. :leaving:

I just think it's cute how he could've been named for either of them. But I think you're a bit wrong on the 'as we all believe' part - Jon Connington has been mentioned in ASoS and I'm pretty sure that this theory has already been flying around for some time (R+L=J being such a popular theory and all).

ETA: I only thought of this after seeing Jon Connington appear in ADWD, though. I didn't even know the guy existed prior to that. :blushing:

I kind of missed that in ASOS, can anyone mention at what chapter I can find reference to Jon Connington and his relationship to/with Rhaegar?

[Brienne the Beauty]

Connington should lose himself in the next battle, wander off in the woods, and cut off his infected fingers. If he cuts off his fingers and lies that it was a battle scar it masks his grey scale infection and possibly cures it if he hacks enough flesh off. I was surprised he was so committed to keeping his infected flesh even though it is certain death for him. Surely he'd rather lose a few fingers than his life?

Not only his own life - it's infectious. He could doom Aegon too, just be being around him.

[Lady of payne]

Intresting Jon Connington had sex with Rhaegar or he can only love him?