Wall Street Protests

[The Progressive]

I was afraid that the protest would be co-opted and hijacked by the fringes of the far-left and far-right with their insane/inane idiocies .......... it seems that it's becoming reality now.

The initial goal was to highlight the grotesque and disproportional influence of the financial sector on politics but now it's becoming a circus with everybody having a field day with their pet issues. The protestors need to refocus on the issue of campaign financing reform and how the recent SCOTUS decision by the conservative majority is causing the problem to worsen.

One guy on NPR yesterday captured it so succintly: "nowaday, you don't even have to donate to a politician to get them to vote your way, all you have to do is run ads against them."

[Inigima]

Still having problems quoting.

I don't know if this is the issue you're having, but ever since the last board upgrade, the Quote button seems to put the quoted text in the "fast reply" box at the bottom of the page.

[alguien]

Thought folks in this thread might appreciate this political cartoon I saw on The Week.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

1. FLOW - I think even if (especially if?) the protestors knew that US corporations pay more than corporations in other OECD countries they would still be angry. I think the focus isn't American corporation v. corporations elsewhere but rather that corporations, as a class of things, get treated too well vis a vis human being individuals. I think the thinking, such as it is, is that "corporations" and the undefined (and therefore evil) rich should pay MORE in taxes, regardless of what they are paying currently. It is a version of "don't tax me, don't tax thee, go and tax the man behind the tree." It's a fundamentally populist sentiment and has deep roots in the American experience, but is, in fact (much like the silver crisis) an argument for a wealth transfer.

This is an excellent point, and I largely agree. But this also is where they piss me off. It is one thing to argue openly that corporations should get taxed more. It is quite another to mislead people into believing corporations are not paying any taxes, or only paying minimal taxes, because I think that distinction is where whatever consensus exists breaks down. The folks who accuse the media of doing the lying are engaging in an even bigger lie themselves.

If you go out and tell the average American that corporations in general pay little or no taxes here, you'll get a lot of agreement that they need to pay more. But if you tell them that American corporations overall pay a higher true rate than other industrialized countries, you're going to get a much different reaction. Because a whole lot of average people are going to think that if we jack up taxes on corporations, we'll simply lose more and more jobs overseas. Which is completely true, btw. Which is why almost no politicians, even the lefty ones, are pushing to jack up the net corporate tax rate.

And that's the kind of muddled thinking that just pisses me off. Earlier in the thread, we were talking about the students bitching about their school loans and lack of jobs. So they go occupy Wall Street -- which has nothing to do with their student loans -- and push for policies that will chase even more jobs overseas. And I'm supposed to think this is an admirable thing just because "they care enough to participate"???

In case you can't tell, I've never been a fan of populist movements of any political stripe. We were born with brains, and we're supposed to fucking use them, not simply mouth ridiculous, poorly-thought out slogans.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

But these people have no answers. You can't give people a shitty deal, raise them on TV and shitty public education and then expect them to come out mouthing off economic theory. The world doesn't work that way, and neither does populism.

Again, everything I see suggests that college sutdents are disproportionately represented. Then again, that doesn't guarantee clear thinking, so I suppose it doesn't matter. But let me get this straight. They're out there having no answers because they've all been raised on TV and have shitty educations. Wanna explain to me again why I should take seriously what these ignorant and uneducated yahoos who have no answers for our problems are saying?

If their only value is in letting us know that they're upset because things aren't going well, didn't the tea parties already do that on a much larger scale? Is it news to anyone that a lot of people are really unhappy with some things right now? If not, what value are the zombies adding?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

FLOW you are cracking me up dude. You keep coming back to, what do the protesters want!? What solutions do they seek? I thought you were married dude. A married guy should know better. When your wife comes home after a long day and starts telling you about the injustices and hardships she faced at work today is she looking for a 5 step plan for improvement from you? Do you demand that she begin offering solutions? Of course not, she just wants you to listen.

We had this same argument about the London riots, and the same argument about LA in 1992. What do they want? Everything. Nothing. They pretty much want to remind the folks in power that they exist.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

But these people have no answers. You can't give people a shitty deal, raise them on TV and shitty public education and then expect them to come out mouthing off economic theory. The world doesn't work that way, and neither does populism.

Again, everything I see suggests that college sutdents are disproportionately represented. Then again, that doesn't guarantee clear thinking, so I suppose it doesn't matter. But let me get this straight. They're out there having no answers because they've all been raised on TV and have shitty educations. Wanna explain to me again why I should take seriously what these ignorant and uneducated yahoos who have no answers for our problems are saying?

If their only value is in letting us know that they're upset because things aren't going well, didn't the tea parties already do that on a much larger scale? Is it news to anyone that a lot of people are really unhappy with some things right now? If not, what value are the zombies adding?

Hahaha, you just don't get it, Jeff! You are trying really hard, i can see. You keep asking the same question over and over again, and you won't ever get an answer to it because there's no unified message. You gotta get over it, man.

No, that's not the point I was making. I get that there is no unified message. I'm not sure there's coherent messaging even on an individual level, but that's not my point.

I'm not asking what they want to change, but rather how/why they would expect this protest to change anything, as opposed to more political action, to change anything. Because like it or not, national policy is set via political institutions. But if they think the political system cannot work, then what is the mechanism for change supposed to be?

In Cairo, you could get this kind of thing in the street, expect the guy in power to quit, and thereby force a change in policies. There's logic to the means if not the message. But I don't get the means here. Do they expect a few hundred of them marching in Wall Street to result in the resignation of the President, and the protestors being appointed as a Committee of Public Safety or something to clean out the rascals?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Again, everything I see suggests that college sutdents are disproportionately represented.

It's generally the most "mobile" demographic, but the movement is expanding beyond simply this demographic.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Separately, I think there's a mythos that we Americans carry around in our subconscious that we are really a nation of small farms (thanks Thomas Jefferson!), entrepreneurial small local businesses, wacky inventors tinkering in studios coming up with the next great idea (thanks Thomas Edison!) and hard working men and women who really drive pickup trucks, drink beer and do things with their hands (thanks every car commercial I've ever seen while watching football!). If only we could get back to that halcyon state, everything would be ok.

I exaggerate, of course, but in my mind there's a disconnect between the unspoken national narrative history of who we are and the reality of what we actually are - the country that invented the multi-national conglomerate (thanks Thomas Edison!), the factory farm and entertainment as big business. Hell, we have a whole (albeit small) state dedicated to corporations and chemical companies.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I thought you were married dude. A married guy should know better. When your wife comes home after a long day and starts telling you about the injustices and hardships she faced at work today is she looking for a 5 step plan for improvement from you? Do you demand that she begin offering solutions? Of course not, she just wants you to listen.

Ah, I think this is my favorite post in this thread, clearly including all of my own. Thanks. Okay, I get the point. But what really happens in that scenario?

"wah, wah, wahwahwah"

"Yes dear, I understand"

"Wahwah, wah, wahwah.

"You're right, that stinks"

"Wah wah wah, wahwah, wah, wahwahwah"

"Um, okay. Say, want to order a pizza so we don't have to cook"In other words, nothing happens except some venting. But if that's all that's happening, why should there be any media attention at all, particularly if the numbers are as small as they are?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Ah, I think this is my favorite post in this thread, clearly including all of my own. Thanks. Okay, I get the point. But what really happens in that scenario?

"wah, wah, wahwahwah"

"Yes dear, I understand"

"Wahwah, wah, wahwah.

"You're right, that stinks"

"Wah wah wah, wahwah, wah, wahwahwah"

"Um, okay. Say, want to order a pizza so we don't have to cook"In other words, nothing happens except some venting. But if that's all that's happening, why should there be any media attention at all, particularly if the numbers are as small as they are?

Hey, you've probably got a solution there. If the Wall Street guys ordered pizza for all the protesters it would probably work miracles.

And remember, this protest wasn't even a big deal until the state started cracking down on the protesters with chemical weapons. Nothing encourages this thing more than the powerful protecting the powerful from the powerless.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Separately, I think there's a mythos that we Americans carry around in our subconscious that we are really a nation of small farms (thanks Thomas Jefferson!), entrepreneurial small local businesses, wacky inventors tinkering in studios coming up with the next great idea (thanks Thomas Edison!) and hard working men and women who really drive pickup trucks, drink beer and do things with their hands

I think you'd be surprised at the number of entrepeneurs and people with pickup trucks still out there. You may not see them in the core of our urban areas, but elsewhere, there's a lot of those folks around.

[paddington]

Does the reality of a situation really matter. When the preception of the situation is very different, and commonly held.

The precpetion that is growing in a lot of countries, is that there is a widening social inequity. That the poor are getting poorer, and the rich are getting more rich. That political classes are becoming more estranged from the public, and are pandering to big bussiness. If the current ecnomic problems continue, then that preception will increase.

The reality maybe different, however the less dissussion of the issue (in terms I can understand), the more social unrest.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

FLOW, I'm not saying that entrepreneurs and pickup trucks and family farms don't exist. They do (my father is an entrepreneur, and my cousins still have the family farm in KY (and a couple of pickup trucks). What I'm saying is that the mythos permeates political and social discourse (on both sides of the aisle) in a way that's unhelpful. I actually think the fact that Delaware exists is pretty awesome, and that Bigcos (and private equity firms and hedge funds and other reviled beings) serve a useful purpose (and not just a useful financial purpose - it's Bigcos, not mom and pop shops, that are driving diversity iniatives in the service industry, for instance). Basically, though all of these ideas EXIST in the USA, they don't define the American experience as actually lived by most people, and, if we in fact could (re?)create a society where these things dominated the experience, we'd probably be pretty unhappy with our standard of living.

[Shryke]

Do you think they're doing that with the realization that corporations in the U.S. are still paying higher real rates than the OECD average? Because if so, you're giving them a lot more credit than I do. To me, it is just sort of ill-informed rage.

I suspect that 99% (heh) of those protestors are completely unaware of that technical point. They just have this gut feeling that corporations don't pay any taxes, and they're mad about it.

Not so much a "gut feeling" as proof like the widely circulated GE story.

The issue FLOW is you keep saying "US companies pay more taxes on average" and ignore that an average is not always relevant and not always the whole picture. Things like the spread of that average are just as important.

If US corps do, in fact, on average pay more, that means a bunch of them are getting absolutely reemed cause a bunch like GE are getting off with very low effective tax burdens.

You don't even need to know the average effective tax burden of US companies to know that, if GE can get off scot-free, the system is fucking broken.

And, of course, this isn't just about taxation but rather the reason for that taxation and a host of other issues: the huge influence of business interests on politics to the detrement of the people

[Shryke]

In reading a little more about how the movement started, I realized why this leaderless model is so effective in combating corruption: it lets a large number of people join in the fun, but more importantly, it makes sure that nobody can start a smear campaign against the "leader" of the movement. As it grows but remains organic and diverse, it becomes impossible to stop through the normal means, which is more or less anti-terrorism tactics (cut off the head, and the next head and so on).

Nah, they just shift focus from a specific "leader" to the general group.

See -> any of FLOW's posts saying "It's only them damn college hippies!"

[Shryke]

Typical Shryke On Taxes...a tax expert, Zabrie, can state a fact (GE is an outlier), and Shryke will try and twist it so that "the system is broken! it's proof!"

No, Shryke, GE is an outlier. The corporate tax system really does work, on the whole. In fact, it is a construction of beauty, as is the unified gift and estate tax.

Geez Chats, apparently you were too busy looking for another ridiculous reason to get your panties in a twist over this to actually bother reading what I wrote.

I said GE was an outlier. I pointed this out as a reason why the average effective tax rate needs context. (ie - the deviation from the mean is also important.)

The fact that GE is an outlier is the point. If your tax system can generate outliers like GE, your tax system is fucking broken.

Hey, I think this thread isn't constantly #1 on the front page of Gen Chat. You should totally bring up that stupid argument again too!

[Lord O' Bones]

Well, how would you tell the difference between co-opting and, I don't know, the people in power actually listening to what you said and reacting to it?

Several decades of tradition.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of entrepeneurs and people with pickup trucks still out there. You may not see them in the core of our urban areas, but elsewhere, there's a lot of those folks around.

Well, of course not. They are out there. But only proportionately relevant in say, a town of under 50,000 people surrounded by not much other than crops. Probably over half of our population lives in cities. And a not insignificant percentage of them don't even need cars, let alone trucks. And there are almost certainly far more entrepreneurs in urban environments. Because, ya know, shit loads more people.

Geez Chats, apparently you were too busy looking for another ridiculous reason to get your panties in a twist over this to actually bother reading what I wrote.

I find this offensive. By saying this to a woman, it is belittling and denigrating to men who like to wear panties. What? They can't have twisted panties without having the "proper" anatomy? Outrageous.

[Shryke]

It's partially on the front page of GenChat because FLOW and I got bored with the Amanda Knox stuff, and we enjoy poking the socialists.

Or because other people are also posting in it too? Like me?

But that skips over the fact that acting like the "socialists" obviously don't care about the issue based on the position this thread is in gen chat is probably the stupidest thing posted in this thread.

[Shryke]

Well, of course not. They are out there. But only proportionately relevant in say, a town of under 50,000 people surrounded by not much other than crops. Probably over half of our population lives in cities. And a not insignificant percentage of them don't even need cars, let alone trucks. And there are almost certainly far more entrepreneurs in urban environments. Because, ya know, shit loads more people.

~82% of the US population lives in urban or suburban areas. Well over 50% lives in urban areas afaik.

Obviously you'd need some idea of what defines "urban" and "suburban" to get an exact idea of what's going on.