Writing a woman as a man?

[Sci-2]

On a parallel note -- I have no problem with women writing gay male characters, but for some reason my mind rebels at the thought of men writing lesbian women characters. I must be a bigot, or something....

heh, touche!

[MinDonner]

I don't remember this. If I ever do another reread, I'll have to keep an eye out for it!

It's not a huge plot point or anything - but you probably do remember the huge fuss when Mirrim Impressed a Green, cuz gurls arnt sposed to do that! - otherwise there are just a few slightly-snide hints here and there of (eg) green and blue riders pairing off when the green's in heat, and the guys in question being rather camp and bitchy. So I guess the blue riders are homosexualized by default when the mating flights happen, as they have not much chance of landing a gold...

<--- wishes she didn't know quite so much about Pern

[Contrarius]

Not strictly true - gay men bonded with the green dragons (sterile females), but I think they were gay beforehand, didn't get artificially feminized by their bonded partner.

I didn't remember this at all, so I looked it up. Here's what Wikipedia had to say. I lurn sumthin new ever day!

"Originally, greens Impressed to girls; however, after various natural disasters and plagues decimated Pern's population, women were needed to help repopulate the planet. Since going between during pregnancy can induce miscarriage and because removing pregnant riders from the Wings reduced the effectiveness of the Wings, it became impractical to present large numbers of women as candidates for Impression. Thus, green dragons began Impressing homosexual boys; by the time of the end of the 2nd Pass, female greenriders were becoming rare. By the time of Moreta in the 6th Pass, female greenriders were entirely forgotten, although greens gradually begin Impressing to women again in the 9th Pass. Females of any sexual orientation may Impress Green."

[Arbor Gold]

Personally, I rarely find myself annoyed at women who are written as 'men with boobs' in terms of personality. Some characters can be gender neutral, as are a lot of personality traits. Where it falls down is when the author can't seem to do social context, or the boob!man is a wildly exceptional (or simply the only) woman. I think it's particularly grating in Fantasy, where the author is responsible for worldbuilding - A tough as nails, swearing, fucking, military woman who is in no way different to the men around her, in a society consistently shown to have very little in the way of gender roles, or restrictive gender roles, is just fine (The Shadows of the Apt world, for example) that same character in a highly patriarchal society, otoh, is a strech - She can't behave just the same as a man, because she'll have been through experiences a man getting to her role would not have been through - ostracization, ridicule, possibly sexual harassment, etc. And if she hasn't been, that its shoddy worldbuilding or obvious authorial fiat, which is bad writing, which no one wants to read.

That's a very eloquent explanation of why I dislike Asha Greyjoy so much. :)

And, though it has been a long time since I read it, I remember having this same complaint about the women (woman?) in Red Seas Under Red Skies.

[The Imp's Advocate]

That's a very eloquent explanation of why I dislike Asha Greyjoy so much. :)

I was always fine with Asha Greyjoy in a societal context. She's a bawdy, tough-as-nails military woman, but she doesn't act the same as a man. There's always this defensive edge to her. She overemphasizes those parts of her personality because she worries she won't be taken seriously, and she often isn't, especially by her uncles.

As for how she even got that far, I got the impression that Balon doted on her and indulged her wishes. Then once she got her foot in the door (or on the deck), she earned the respect of her men. I'm okay with this conflict being mostly off-screen for Asha, especially when it's explored so often with Brienne.

[Sci-2]

As for how she even got that far, I got the impression that Balon doted on her and indulged her wishes. Then once she got her foot in the door (or on the deck), she earned the respect of her men. I'm okay with this conflict being mostly off-screen for Asha, especially when it's explored so often with Brienne.

Heh, I never really thought of this but now that you mention it I actually would like to see a little of Asha's story, and how it contrasted with Brienne's.

I know GRRM wanted to do something with Dany and Cersei being contrasted, but not sure how well that worked. Still working on Dance though...

[Nukelavee]

I don't remember the Green riders being campy or bitchy...just really caught up in the dragon's emotions.

I think there's a scene in "The White Dragon" where Jaxom sees a Green mating flight, and wonders why Ruth doesn't care (that describes the involved riders).

Plus, F'nor. Pretty certain there is mention of Canth mating with Greens, but...F'nor seems pretty not gay.

Be interesting to see who actually worries about males badly writing female characters, gender wise.

Honestly, I don't think I worry about it at all. Badly written characters just mean I don't like the book, no matter who wrote it.

[Callan S.]

I think it'd be interesting to run an experiment, where an author of one gender writes a character of another gender. To a control reader group, say the authors actual gender. Then to another group say the author had the opposite gender.

Then survey each group and see whether they think the character was a well written male/female character.

I'd be curious as to whether author gender knowledge influences these assessments.

[Shryke]

I was always fine with Asha Greyjoy in a societal context. She's a bawdy, tough-as-nails military woman, but she doesn't act the same as a man. There's always this defensive edge to her. She overemphasizes those parts of her personality because she worries she won't be taken seriously, and she often isn't, especially by her uncles.

As for how she even got that far, I got the impression that Balon doted on her and indulged her wishes. Then once she got her foot in the door (or on the deck), she earned the respect of her men. I'm okay with this conflict being mostly off-screen for Asha, especially when it's explored so often with Brienne.

Yeah, I liked Asha in that it really seemed (just like Brienne) that her ability to defy gender norms was in large part based on the priveledges of her societal rank and on the indulgence of a powerful patron.

[SpaceChampion]

The Pern dragon gender correlating with their rider's sexuality doesn't add up. Greens are 50% of the population of dragons. They all can't have homosexual riders. Also, saying all blue male riders would pair up with a green rider implies all the blue riders are gay or bisexual too. Since browns also mate with green, you are arguing that all dragonriders are gay or bisexual, except for the few bronze and gold riders.

Actually most green riders are in fact heterosexual, and pair up with weyr-born women when their green goes into heat. Just like the blue and brown riders do. It is only a percentage, probably 10% that are homosexual or bisexual.

I think this myth has been busted.

Edit: Okay, I just read what McCaffrey herself had to say on it, and surprisingly that agrees with the wiki article, which i had assumed wrong. McCaffrey also refuses to believe that there are any "true" lesbians, just mentally defective women mistaken about their own preferences. Shards, what a screwy worldview.

[MinDonner]

On the other hand, only a small fraction of the population as a whole gets picked as dragonriders anyway. Maybe gay guys are just better at it?

[Sci-2]

I think it'd be interesting to run an experiment, where an author of one gender writes a character of another gender. To a control reader group, say the authors actual gender. Then to another group say the author had the opposite gender.

Then survey each group and see whether they think the character was a well written male/female character.

I'd be curious as to whether author gender knowledge influences these assessments.

Interesting. We could probably do it on these boards, maybe even a double-blinded thing...

ETA: I just realized that seems to say the writer doesn't know their own gender. Heh. I meant only the writers would know their genders until the end of the survey period.

[SpaceChampion]

On the other hand, only a small fraction of the population as a whole gets picked as dragonriders anyway. Maybe gay guys are just better at it?

Hmmm... that's like saying there is a fundamental cognitive difference between men and women, and women are less represented in math and sciences because they are less cognitively capable. Actual studies show they are equal in capability (differences are accounted for by noise in the data), it is just a selection bias that leads more men to be scientists, engineers, and programmers.

But yes, Pernese dragons do seem to choose riders based on sexual selection, it is just absurd that there are that many gay boys around suitable to impress as riders. All greens, and apparently a lot of blues too, which is another 30% of the weyr. Since the solution of male dragonriders pairing up with weyrborn females who make themselves available is so obvious (or just riding the village bike so to speak) that most people don't even notice the under the table male-male rider mating in the books, it is just astonishing how McCaffrey missed putting that as the norm rather than the exception. Apparently she can't count. This is why it is bad idea for an author to lay down canon outside of the books.

[Starkess]

Edit: Okay, I just read what McCaffrey herself had to say on it, and surprisingly that agrees with the wiki article, which i had assumed wrong. McCaffrey also refuses to believe that there are any "true" lesbians, just mentally defective women mistaken about their own preferences. Shards, what a screwy worldview.

When she originally started writing the male greenriders, she subscribed to the theory that via the act of anal intercourse, men become homosexual. Therefore the heterosexual greenriders would be a recipient of anal during a mating flight and then start to find it enjoyable and become homosexual.

She later became more educated on the issue but that is how it started. No clue on her views on lesbians.

(This is to the best of my knowledge, anyway, I was a huge huge Pern nerd for a long time.)

[Brienne the Beauty]

Not quite what I meant though - this sounds like a kind of effeminization within the story. I meant a male character (written by a woman or not) who people find to be poorly written as regards to being convincingly male.

This happens all the time in the fanfic world. You get a canon series with a macho tough guy as the star, but a fanfic writer decides to write a story in which he worries about his weight, agonizes over curtain patterns, and gets weepy over babies. It's really weird to read, and one reason I can never get into fanfic! It doesn't seem to be found in published fiction as much as the opposite problem, though.

[Zoë Sumra]

I think this is pretty much it, as well as the "token female" thing - if you have just one female character per book then it's easier to see it as a general failing, whereas men get to take all sorts of roles without being necessarily unconvincing as men.

I often see the "token female" thing as the source of the problem. You have a cast of a dozen men with beefy speaking parts, who can act in so many different ways within the grouping... and a couple of female speaking roles, trying to be all things to all women, and failing.

ETA: Regarding feminised men, this isn't a direct example, but in Les Miserables, Victor Hugo made a thing of most of his leading male characters (Valjean, Marius, Enjolras, I think Javert) being virgins. Female virginity and its loss is quite often explored, but male (hetero) virginity, less so.

[MinDonner]

Hmmm... that's like saying there is a fundamental cognitive difference between men and women, and women are less represented in math and sciences because they are less cognitively capable. Actual studies show they are equal in capability (differences are accounted for by noise in the data), it is just a selection bias that leads more men to be scientists, engineers, and programmers.

Well yeah, I know this. But it's pretty clear that Anne McCaffrey doesn't...

But yes, Pernese dragons do seem to choose riders based on sexual selection, it is just absurd that there are that many gay boys around suitable to impress as riders. All greens, and apparently a lot of blues too, which is another 30% of the weyr. Since the solution of male dragonriders pairing up with weyrborn females who make themselves available is so obvious (or just riding the village bike so to speak) that most people don't even notice the under the table male-male rider mating in the books, it is just astonishing how McCaffrey missed putting that as the norm rather than the exception. Apparently she can't count. This is why it is bad idea for an author to lay down canon outside of the books.

I never really considered this before, but yeah, it's quite a hilarious failing on her part. It's pretty obvious that the whole "riders get caught up in their dragons' emotions so must uncontrollably fuck" thing was just as the key excuse for F'lar/Lessa sexytimes, but she hadn't remotely thought through the fact that there were only one-and-a-half female riders on the whole planet.... :lol:

[Cot]

Oh I wasn't looking to talk about women in SFF overall, read a few of those threads, just curious about that particular complaint. I heard it in passing and didn't get a chance to ask what it means.

You're either a very inquisitive fellow or a new, enhanced breed of troll. 20 pages.

[Lyanna Stark]

This happens all the time in the fanfic world. You get a canon series with a macho tough guy as the star, but a fanfic writer decides to write a story in which he worries about his weight, agonizes over curtain patterns, and gets weepy over babies. It's really weird to read, and one reason I can never get into fanfic! It doesn't seem to be found in published fiction as much as the opposite problem, though.

Twilight isn't fanfic tho? :P

To the OP:

A common mistake made, as DatePalm pointed out upthreads, is that women lack personality and agency, and you end up with female characters basically being Disposable women, "Stuffed in the fridge" or the alternative: a man w. tits. It's rare to find characters like Sansa, who is a product of her society and yet a distinct personality. Same with Catelyn Stark.

Another facet of failing at writing female characters is when these characters only ever talk to men, or if they talk to eachother, they talk *about* men.

[MinDonner]

The other one that particularly bugs me is when female characters are only included when the plot calls for something specifically female, ie. mother/girlfriend/prostitute/princess. All the gender-neutral roles seem to default to male characters, whether or not they require any specific male attributes either physically or in the world's setting. Occasionally this is offset by "oh let's make one of these street urchins a girl" or "how about a female boss" but by and large, these are tokenistic and rare yet seem to be "enough" for most authors. Of course I'm not sexist, I put in a female lab technician didn't I?