Writing a woman as a man?

[Galactus]

The perversions wrought by the Great Satan are myriad and foul.

Verily.

BTW. Datepalm speaks the truth.

[Nukelavee]

I dunno if Datepalm is speaking THE Truth...but, yeah, she's covered a lot of it.

As I've said, I really enjoyed the book, partly because, well, Friday. Not her "free" sexuality, but the fact she's basically a combat azi. Seriously, I love me some gene-engineered storylines. Enough that I STILL read Drakon every so often. (Blame Wargames, from my guilty pleasures list).

But, Heinlein and sex? I read, umm, "I Will Fear No Evil". The one where teh ancient oligarch ends up getting his brain slapped in the corpse of his beloved lurvely PA. Yeah. I try hard not to think about that one.

But, I loved the proto-anarch state of society in Friday, the secret control of teh , umm, Skipstone Corporation...that shit rocks.

[Gigei]

Apparently that was one of the earliest transgender sf stories. :)

I read, umm, "I Will Fear No Evil". The one where teh ancient oligarch ends up getting his brain slapped in the corpse of his beloved lurvely PA.

[Starkess]

I even remember there was at least once instance of underage incestuous sex in a Heinlein book.

Ugh, there totally was. And funny enough THAT bothered the main character even when the rest of the "taboo" sexual relations didn't.

I like Heinlein for the most part, but some of his "exploring sexuality" made my stomach turn. I think the worst was the one where the mom and dad were having sex with their kids in the same bed at the same time, and she was so excited for her daughter's first time with her dad. :stillsick:

[Sci-2]

SO MUCH of what they're writing women FOR is to 'explore sexuality/feminism/gender/whatever' and so naturally this character who's job in the text is to facilitate the authors ruminations about rape/marriage/free love/boobs is flat and exploitative.

I do think there is some of this in Bakker's work (Someone called it "allegorical flattening" - Kalbear?), but at the same time I think he did well not going with the "happy whores", we come from an exotic land of free love, trope that GRRM partially seemed to fall into.

At the same time, GRRM might have given us a larger spectrum of prostitutes but I honestly can't remember if there were poor, downtrodden prostitutes who struggle to get by and worry about getting older. I remember Diane Sawyer did a documentary on American prostitution, which was horrific. I think Bakker captured the concerns of some of the women interviewed rather well in some passages.

Bakker himself has said there was a documentary on sex trafficking in Asia which made him feel he had romanticized the life of a prostitute, I can't even bring myself to get to that, especially after reading "They Shoot Pornstars, Don't They?"

ETA: Not saying I completely disagree with you, or that we should get into a tit-for-tat argument about Bakker, but I do think the man wrote the characters well. YMMV and admittedly I'm a dude so I'm willing to accept that might skew my viewpoint.

[Datepalm]

its more like...dude*, why is the only interest you have in women is as prostitutes?

Happy whores, abused whores, nice whores, mean whores...one does find the litany eventually missing something. I wonder what?

* a sort of general, non gender specific, not-necessarily Bakker shaped dude. Addressing the issue of the ways women are over- and under represented in general.

[Sci-2]

Yeah, I had the same complaint against him though there is a sorceress in White Luck Warrior who actually is pretty well adjusted. She might, in the shaded grey of the Bakker-verse, even be a relatively good person.

Reading Tanith Lee's Birthgrave - the heroine is interesting in that she recognizes her vulnerability in a world of violent men and the protection their superstition (they think she might be a goddess) affords her. So far she seems to be doing a good job showing a woman with agency in a patriarchal world.

[Liffguard]

its more like...dude*, why is the only interest you have in women is as prostitutes?

Happy whores, abused whores, nice whores, mean whores...one does find the litany eventually missing something. I wonder what?

* a sort of general, non gender specific, not-necessarily Bakker shaped dude. Addressing the issue of the ways women are over- and under represented in general.

AKA Frank Miller syndrome.

[Datepalm]

There needs to be like a Frank Miller Rape test...* Is the number of named female characters in your book who have been raped larger than the number of those who haven't? FAIL.

(Enjoyed rape, did not enjoy rape, raped by husband, raped by stranger in dark alley, raped by aliens, raped once, raped lots, destroyed by rape, empowered by rape, brushing off rape, terrible rape, titillating rape...yes, I do believe some facet of womens experience is missing from this list.)

*Can anyone come up with a name...?

[Zoë Sumra]

There needs to be like a Frank Miller Rape test...* Is the number of named female characters in your book who have been raped larger than the number of those who haven't? FAIL.

(Enjoyed rape, did not enjoy rape, raped by husband, raped by stranger in dark alley, raped by aliens, raped once, raped lots, destroyed by rape, empowered by rape, brushing off rape, terrible rape, titillating rape...yes, I do believe some facet of womens experience is missing from this list.)

*Can anyone come up with a name...?

There is.

http://aaru-tuesday.blogspot.com/2007/10/1958.html

[Nukelavee]

Uh, Datepalm? you're frothing. I'm just not certain if you're implying that is a genre-wide trend, or an observation about a given author or two.

Still, yeah, whores. Why are they always so damn chipper in "realistic" historical type fantasy? Seriously, I've never met a cheerful hooker, with or without a heart of gold. That sounds bad, btw. (no, I don't make use of prostitutes). I've known a few, on a "friend of a friend" basis (hey, oddly, some of my closest friends are strippers, which means I get to hang out with all sorts of really iffy kinds of people). None of them are anything like Martin's, for example.

One of them was pretty much one of the Braavossi "princess" types. Beautiful woman, smart, spoke 4 languages, owned a beautiful house, dressed in the best designers, drove a BMW and a Mercedes (for winter)...

Hung herself in her front hall last year. The Barbie was heartbroken.

So, yeah, I find the sheer number of whore's in Martin books (for example), and their portrayal, tiresome and so fake. And, in my opinion, GoT has nothing on Wildcards for that kind of failure. The problem with Wildcards (and, I gave up on that series long ago) in terms of this topic, tho, is...holy fuck, the female authors are just as exploitative. Seriously, ever read the one where Tach goes home after Blaze does the body switch shit? That's written by a woman, and, wow - so fucked up in a way that boggles me.

Rape? I know far too many rape victims, male and female (including me), to accept the sheer number of times the act gets over and/or misused.

But, again, I'm amazed at how many female writers abuse the concept, as well as males. (please, spare me the expected "but men do it more". I don't care. It's not "well, women do it to, so, hey, male writers aren't so bad" or trying to minimize male actions, it's simply saying "there are some fucked up examples that are female created").

The Fifth Millenium novels, which are written (solo and as teams) by SM Stirling and various women (Shirley Meier, for one), seem fueled by various rape fantasies, or issues. The entire story of Fifth Chevenga, and the evil Arkans (ie, Romans from spaaaaaace) is one long epic of male on male rape, pedophilia...

[The WaterDancer Knight]

There is no cheerful whores in ASoIaF, there is only whores who show some cheerfulness when they are with customers. That makes a big difference.

[Sci-2]

Trigger Warning: Discussion on Rape in Fiction

I actually agree with Nukelavee, and think rape should be used less or at least done better. I've heard the opposite argument though, from women and men, that the real threat of sexual violence (which in some places is ever present) needs to be portrayed.

My problem is more the just bizarre use of it, where it comes up as a way to showcase something else (like the pain/anger of another character) or as a quick plot point to show how bad the BBEG is.

I've read, and heard of another use, of rituals in fiction that heal the trauma of rape victims. I can see a religious practice, even a ceremony to begin the healing process against any trauma, but this was, to me, just using magic as a deux ex machina.

Unless it is handled really well, I usually count it against a writer who finds some idiotic way to get a character sexually assaulted. Or really assaulted at all, but the use of sexual assault is really stupid.

ETA: "with Nukelavee", "in fiction"

[Nukelavee]

I dunno, Waterdancer - look at the general attitude of Chataya and her housegirls...admittedly, they come from a land where working in a brothel type enviroment is honoured, but...that alone strikes me as fake. (yes, I know, temple prostitutes existed, but...it still seems a cheap device).

The Bravosi courtesans seem pretty cool with their lives, so, again...

Yeah, I'm a bit boggled by the equation that rape+whores= realistic gritty writing.

[Callan S.]

its more like...dude*, why is the only interest you have in women is as prostitutes?

I think the key word is 'interest'. I don't think he's interested in it - it's not really the sort of fiction where the author just writes about stuff he likes, like a magic system he finds particularly spiffy or something. Really I think the complaint should be more like he acts as classroom teacher and instead of the 'hide a comic book inside a school book so as to pretend to be studying' he's gone around and hidden school books inside all the comic books.

[TerraPrime]

Really I think the complaint should be more like he acts as classroom teacher and instead of the 'hide a comic book inside a school book so as to pretend to be studying' he's gone around and hidden school books inside all the comic books.

Whu...? I don't get this metaphor/simile.

[Lord O' Bones]

Whu...? I don't get this metaphor/simile.

I think he's trying to say, rather than use historical reasons to write about sex with prostitutes because huh huh huh boobs, instead GRRM is writing about prostitution to include the historical context in the narrative.

Or something.

[Nukelavee]

It's good of George to not let us forget feudal hookers.

[Sci-2]

I think, but am not sure, Callan is saying the complaint, if it is to be made at all, about Bakker's female characters is that they are placed in the story so that the author can say something about sex/prostitution/gender in real life.

I think Datepalm said something similar, about authors who want to come down the mountain and have their characters deliver a message rather than have the characters interact in a plausible storyline.

[Callan S.]

Kinda. Perhaps if I say I think Bakker is basically making 'Horrible Histories' for adults?

I'm not sure how ones measures plausible story interaction. I suspect there are many historical events which, if they were written in fantasy fiction as if just another part of the made up fiction, large swaths of readers might find it implausible.