Football #24 -- Now sponsored by Sports Direct

[Young Wolf]

Given a choice between those two, Terry.

If you would like to submit another name, feel free!

[Black Wizard]

Yeah, Piers Morgan is a serious Arsenal fan, and apparently some asshat at Fox realized he tweets a lot about Arsenal and put him in the most insufferable studio show of all time.

Some pretty random people get to become football pundits actually. One of the Cavalera brothers (ex-Sepultura) has been a football pundit in Brazil. :lol:

[Calibandar]

Typical. I turned the Chelsea-United game off after what I thought was a horrible first half. I saw Torres get the ball 20 yards from goal without a defender directly in front of him, he strikes the ball, and it just directed itself swiftly to the corner flag. Terrible form he has.

And now it turns out they scored 5 goals in the second half. United looked woeful once again btw, terrible to see them like this. I guess the Fergie fans will say it's a good thing this team got kicked out of the FA cup as well, so we can now " focus" just on the EPL. Which we do not deserve to win.

[polishgenius]

United looked woeful once again btw, terrible to see them like this. I guess the Fergie fans will say it's a good thing this team got kicked out of the FA cup as well, so we can now " focus" just on the EPL. Which we do not deserve to win.

The defence was woeful. The rest of the team played okay, I don't know what your criteria are.

Mind you, I've only seen the second, but everyone I've spoke to says we dominated the first as well.

And whoever gets the most points deserves to win the league. It'd be nice if we could consistently play as nicely as Spurs and City can, sure, but if they don't win more then they're not better. And better to play crap and win and fix it then play well and lose and see all your best players leave.

[Black Wizard]

And now it turns out they scored 5 goals in the second half. United looked woeful once again btw, terrible to see them like this. I guess the Fergie fans will say it's a good thing this team got kicked out of the FA cup as well, so we can now " focus" just on the EPL. Which we do not deserve to win.

You are forgetting UEFA Cup!

[Calibandar]

Oh yeah. Super.

And better to play crap and win and fix it then play well and lose and see all your best players leave.

I don't see it like that. I think if you play crap like Man U's been this season especially, you're long overdue to not become champions, and get the wake-up call you so desperately need. And if players choose to leave, so be it, there's not that many players in the current squad that I would rate as irreplacable, or as better players than what the other top 7 teams have. For me, it's not points above all other aspects of the game, that's not why I love football.

My criteria are fairly reasonable I think, but clearly they are higher than yours. I didn't think the offense and the midfield played great or even okay, and I didn't think we dominated Chelsea in the first half either. And Chelsea are in one hell of a rut themselves, and have consistently dropped points against mediocre sides in the last weeks.

[baxus]

The Rooney-Webb partnership is consistent and prolific.

webb really is ferguson's go-to-guy whenever he badly needs a result.

[Black Wizard]

You guys are forgetting about Joey Barton!

[polishgenius]

I don't see it like that. I think if you play crap like Man U's been this season especially, you're long overdue to not become champions, and get the wake-up call you so desperately need. And if players choose to leave, so be it, there's not that many players in the current squad that I would rate as irreplacable, or as better players than what the other top 7 teams have. For me, it's not points above all other aspects of the game, that's not why I love football.

I don't understand how you can think that, at the same time, our players aren't that good and that Fergie needs to leave. It's one or the other, surely? I don't think there is a single manager in the world who'd be able to both play the sexy football you crave and come anywhere close to winning the league with that squad; and while I think Fergie makes the odd transfer cock-up (I don't get the Young thing at all) he's also pulled some great signings out of the hat on a budget much more limited than both what he was working before and most of the teams he'd rival for players of the quality he needs (ie City, Madrid, Barca, PSG, that kind of thing). Really, the only major problem is in the center of midfield, an issue that could be solved with one signing.

I mean, I brought this up before, but; when Tom Cleverley was fit at the start of the season and providing some passing hustle the football we were playing was amazing. It's not as if the potential isn't there in that squad.

We've also been massively hit by injury and coped with it way better than any other squad in the league does when they have close to that many players missing. I mean yeah our defence was rotten today but our two best CBs were out. Three best, depending on how you rate Jones as a CB compared to Evans.

As for players leaving; apart from Vidic, there probably aren't any irreplacable players (Rooney would be very difficult and involve a big restructure of shape, but his inconsistency means he isn't the force he should be) but replacing them when you're in the CL is a very different prospect to replacing them when you're not. Especially since sacking Fergie would instantly reduce the name cachet that could attract new players to a club for the moment not in the CL.

Not really defending Suarez here, but surely Terry wins by a mile. You have so much to pick from - sleeping with teammates' wifes, parking in disabled spaces... the guy makes Giggs look like a saint! :P

Tbh I was being faceitous there. The real right answer is Stephen Hunt, on account of how dangerous he is to his fellow pros.

You've got Joey Barton in the mixer too.

[Zoë Sumra]

You guys are forgetting about Joey Barton!

Saved by his Twitter feed, IMO.

Does Tevez still count as being in the EPL?

[Paddy]

Barton stubbed out a lit cigar in the eye of a member of his own club's youth team.

[Calibandar]

I don't understand how you can think that, at the same time, our players aren't that good and that Fergie needs to leave. It's one or the other, surely?

You're grasping onto my statement that I don't think many of the players are irreplacable as a means of saying " it'll never be good by your standards, you don't like the players or the manager". Which misrepresents my thoughts.

I think Ferguson should go, because I think he's had his chance and I think a breath of fresh air would do the team good. I thought so last year as well. I'm not saying the players aren't good; I am however saying that either Ferguson himself, or another manager given the chance, could and really should do better with the current squad, both in terms of results, especially in critical matches, and in terms of play.

Re: players leaving. I'm not concerned that players would start leaving the club if United din't win the title for once, or if Ferguson should retire. I actually estimate that that would have very little impact.

The effect I think could happen is if United continue to go on like this is that nothing is won this year at all, and that that will cause people in charge to have a serious think about what should be changed. My fear is that if we drag ourselves to a championship, scraping the points together and at least gaining one prize, that all those valid concerns will be swept under the rug. In some ways it would be best if CIty were to dominate completely and humiliate United again.

[Renasko]

The real right answer is Stephen Hunt, on account of how dangerous he is to his fellow pros.

Catch yourself on. I'm not talking biased because he's Irish, either; I'm not a fan of the player. He's hardly dangerous. I imagine your basing this judgement on one incident against Chelsea, that while reckless, was hardly malicious. He's an enthuiastic player. Never taken him for a man that would willing hurt another professional on purpose.

And in no way does using Twitter excuse anyone. If anything, it puts him down even more. That nonsense recently in response to Warnock speaking correctly, in stating that Barton talks enough, was fully deserved. I'm sure Neil could've said a hell of a lot worse...if anything, he was avoiding doing so.

But who can expect patience from scum like him?

[polishgenius]

My fear is that if we drag ourselves to a championship, scraping the points together and at least gaining one prize, that all those valid concerns will be swept under the rug.

I think it's extraordinary that you thing Ferguson is likely to sweep any concerns under the rug, owners putting pressure on him or no. Do you honestly think he's pleased that we're playing this workmanlike football and have gone out of the CL so early? Last time that happened he restructured and we won it a few years later with multiple finals while beasting it up with Ronaldo and co.

Seriously; we're one or two players away.

could and really should do better with the current squad, both in terms of results, especially in critical matches,

This is the bit that's really going over my head. We're two points behind City in the league, and they've got a harder run-in left; points-wise we're doing no worse than most we've had despite this being a particularly competitive season. We won the thing last season and got to the CL final for the third time in four years. In terms of play; yes, we maybe could play better, though as I say I think we're close. In terms of results? It's genuinely confusing to me that you think they're inadequate.

I guess my question is this: who do you think could do it better than Fergie?

Catch yourself on. I'm not talking biased because he's Irish, either; I'm not a fan of the player. He's hardly dangerous. I imagine your basing this judgement on one incident against Chelsea, that while reckless, was hardly malicious. He's an enthuiastic player. Never taken him for a man that would willing hurt another professional on purpose.

Nah, I thought the Cech thing was an accident initially. But seeing him play for Reading and then Wolves regularly convinced me otherwise - every single week he's leaving knees and feet and elbows in tackles in order to give the opponent a bit of a knock. He's a Sergio Ramos level of tosser.

[mormont]

I think Ferguson should go, because I think he's had his chance

:lol: 'He's had his chance'? That's certainly one way of describing an unparalleled 26 years in charge of a club that he has made the most successful in English football history, winning 12 championships, 5 FA cups, and 2 European cups. It might just appear to be a slightly understated one, though.

'Had his chance' is how you would normally describe a manager who's tried to fulfill a club's ambitions and had only moderate success. Fergie 'had his chance' when you and I were still kids, and he took it in a manner unprecedented and likely never to be repeated in the modern game. The notion that he should be treated by the board as if he were a manager they'd hired last season is, apart from anything else, completely unrealistic.

Man U have high expectations, no doubt, and their performance in the CL this year was far below those standards. But domestically, they're two points off the lead, which is held by a squad of vastly superior players and resources - a team that could, quite honestly, buy any player Man U wanted simply to stop them having that player, and probably would. And the football on show is, given all of the circumstances, pretty good. Yeah, Man U might not win anything this season at all. And yes, Fergie will be revamping on the basis of those terrible European results. But realistically, there's not going to be a revolt against him even if he finishes second and wins nothing at all. Most informed observers will say that was still a pretty good season, in domestic terms.

[Black Wizard]

They're hilariously bad. This season more than ever, I think.

If they had any sense in their heads, there would be protests and calls for Whyte's head, but we can't be having that!

Did you see the attendance? It was 17,822 at bloody Ibrox, a stadium whose capacity is about 50,000. :o This is comparable with the poor attendances from the self-styled "Best fans in the world" at Celtic Park at the end of Tony Mowbray's reign and the beginning of Neil Lennon's. The irony is that Rangers are struggling for money, so their loyal fans deprive them of funds by not attending matches.

I've said at the start of the last couple of seasons that Rangers' current difficulties must eventually catch up with them and they'll stop winning things. It seems that time may have come, but I won't completely right them off just yet.

[mormont]

There certainly has been a fair amount of unrest and unhappiness from the Rangers supporters: some of them were highly doubtful about Whyte right from the start (I think rightly so). The low attendances as a reaction are, I think, more typical of Rangers than of Celtic - I remember back when Murray first took over, the gates had collapsed even then, and they dropped at the end of the first Walter Smith era, and during the Paul Le Guen period too. Celtic have suffered drops too, of course, but not as bad.

Of course, when considering Saturday's gate in particular, you must take into account that it was a bad day for travelling from Belfast. ;)

[Black Wizard]

Of course, when considering Saturday's gate in particular, you must take into account that it was a bad day for travelling from Belfast. ;)

Oooooo controversial.

The attendance on Saturday would have been pretty poor as well I imagine. I would be surprised if Rangers let their fans sit in the stadium when there's not a match on.

[mormont]

Oooooo controversial.

The attendance on Saturday would have been pretty poor as well I imagine. I would be surprised if Rangers let their fans sit in the stadium when there's not a match on.

There is that. But perhaps this is the way forward for the club - renting the stadium seats on non-match days. The club get cash flow, and the supporters are spared having to watch David Healy up front. :P

[Calibandar]

Polish

I think it's extraordinary that you thing Ferguson is likely to sweep any concerns under the rug, owners putting pressure on him or no. Do you honestly think he's pleased that we're playing this workmanlike football and have gone out of the CL so early?

I don't know, it's hard to say how he feels. I try to judge him on what I can see.

. In terms of results? It's genuinely confusing to me that you think they're inadequate.

Really? I think you're applying different standards to United than for the other big teams.

Look at Chelsea. Look at Arsenal. Look at Liverpool. All of them in big trouble and this is being conceeded by and large by the fans and critics. Is United really much better off? I for one certainly don't think so. In direct match-ups we struggle and are constanly a hair away from defeat. We don't beat smaller teams with any conviction, no more than these above mentioned teams do. Arsenal and Chelsea are through in the CL, we're not. And all you can put against that is that we have scraped a few more points in the league. One good run from Arsenal/Chelsea/Liverpool for a few games and they could be level, the way United has been playing this year.

Mormont

You're being obtuse in your interpretation of Ferguson's "had his chance". There is no doubt or discussion about Ferguson's immense past success. I'm saying that if this goes on, the conclusion that he's had his time would be justified, and someone else should be handed the reins.

But realistically, there's not going to be a revolt against him even if he finishes second and wins nothing at all

Indeed, and that would be my fear.

Of course, is United starts to show serious,structural improvement than I am happy for Ferguson to stay on. He doesn't necessarily have to go as far as I'm concerned anyway.

But domestically, they're two points off the lead, which is held by a squad of vastly superior players and resources - a team that could, quite honestly, buy any player Man U wanted simply to stop them having that player, and probably would. And the football on show is, given all of the circumstances, pretty good

Well, no, the football is not pretty good, even considering circumstances. And two points off the lead, that's a bit of luck as well isn't it, what with City suddenly getting into a bit of slump recently.