Dragonsteel is not Valaryan Steel.

[Ingelheim]

When they talk about Dragon Fire used to forge Valyrian Steel do they mean falme actually breathed by a dragon or is it symbolic of the Valyrian Volcano fires?

If the latter than could the Dragon Steel have been forged in Hardhome? It went boom a bit like Valyria did, pointing to similar volcanic activity.

I would say breathed by a dragon. It makes sense.

The creature of Fire (dragon) vs The creature of Ice (Others).

[Veltigar]

When they talk about Dragon Fire used to forge Valyrian Steel do they mean falme actually breathed by a dragon or is it symbolic of the Valyrian Volcano fires?

Dragons. Just ask yourself, what did disappear from the world that made the making of new Valyrian Steel impossible? It wasn't the blood sacrifices or the knowhow (both kept in Qohor) and as there are still vulcanos, that can't be it. Dragons though, they have been gone for a long time. Thus it is probably dragonflame.

[Mithras]

I just want to be clear here: you are saying that dragonsteel is the Wall, correct?

Maybe the Wall/NW was the "sword" that broke the Others but currently, the NW is broken and the Wall will soon follow. We know that the Others cannot even touch dragonglass. Ygritte said that the Wall was made of blood. Since blood sacrifice drains the life-fire of the victims, this makes the Wall literally "frozen fire". So, the Wall is functionally a huge block of dragonglass (=frozen fire) which the Others should not be able to touch.

“By night, all cloaks are black.” Therefore, I don't think magic swords or the dragons will be primary factors in the victory against the Others. A leader will once again unite the people against the common threat and that is how the humans will prevail. That leader will be identified as the Lightbringer (=Jon).

[RoamingRonin]

There is a nice metaphor about the Wall and dragonsteel. It is said that the Wall is a sword in the east but a snake in the west, due to its shape. That description is equal to dragonsteel.

So, the Wall is functionally a huge block of dragonglass (=frozen fire) which the Others should not be able to touch.

Which is it.

[Mithras]

Which is it.

All of them.

[RumHam]

Dragons. Just ask yourself, what did disappear from the world that made the making of new Valyrian Steel impossible? It wasn't the blood sacrifices or the knowhow (both kept in Qohor) and as there are still vulcanos, that can't be it. Dragons though, they have been gone for a long time. Thus it is probably dragonflame.

It's been confirmed that the Valyrian Steel swords were forged in dragonflame since the first book.

“Ser Jorah Mormont,” she said, “first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well.”

If that quote is too ambiguous for you there are have been others since, like:

Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells.

From dance. It was also mentioned in the Sons of the Dragon reading. So there should no longer be any question that Valyrian Steel is forged in dragonflame.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

Already debunked by GRRM. No dragonbones were used in the making of VS.

You misunderstood. I said if Dragonsteel IS NOT Valyrian Steel, then DRAGONSTEEL is weapons made of dragon bone.

I did not say that dragonbone was used in Valyrian Steel.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Dragons. Just ask yourself, what did disappear from the world that made the making of new Valyrian Steel impossible? It wasn't the blood sacrifices or the knowhow (both kept in Qohor) and as there are still vulcanos, that can't be it. Dragons though, they have been gone for a long time. Thus it is probably dragonflame.

Um, Valyria. The Targs had dragons but they didn't make Valyrian Steel. Balerion was even used to help forge the Iron Throne.

The Qohoriks can rework Valyrian Steel, but I don't think they've ever succeeded in making it from scratch.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Maybe the Wall/NW was the "sword" that broke the Others but currently, the NW is broken and the Wall will soon follow. We know that the Others cannot even touch dragonglass. Ygritte said that the Wall was made of blood. Since blood sacrifice drains the life-fire of the victims, this makes the Wall literally "frozen fire". So, the Wall is functionally a huge block of dragonglass (=frozen fire) which the Others should not be able to touch.

“By night, all cloaks are black.” Therefore, I don't think magic swords or the dragons will be primary factors in the victory against the Others. A leader will once again unite the people against the common threat and that is how the humans will prevail. That leader will be identified as the Lightbringer (=Jon).

Not really. You're mixing up your metaphors. Blood sacrifice drains the life force (and the blood) of victims. Frozen fire is obsidian. The Wall is definitely not obsidian. But...

I would believe there is a layer of obsidian deep in the heart of the wall, possibly obsidian that killed a lot of Others in the War for the Dawn, so it would still be made of blood--the blood of the Others, and the Wildlings who later warred with the Watch and were broken on the Wall, and the blood of those who have given their lives to the Watch. Not to mention all the men killed in construction accidents during the initial building and subsequent additions to the Wall.

[LordStoneheart]

Sweet summer child :rolleyes:

Save your eyerolls. GRRM is perfectly capable of being straight forward and not overly complex or convoluted.

Actually, it isn't. The Long Night happened 8000 years ago; the Valyrian Freehold started to raise 5500 years ago.

We are discussing if Valyrian Steel is a kind of dragonsteel. Which I believe it is. The same as Dawn.

Did you think I did not know that argument when I commented? I believe it's not an anachronism of history but just a murky timeline issue that GRRM didn't intend. Even the world book had timeline errors.

[ChaosImprisonateMe]

Valyrian steel sounds like German or Japanese Steel. Its the art and craft of the Steel that distinguishes itself from others. There will never be smiths who could forge weapons with the same craftsmanship.

I wonder if its fair to say that Ice is no longer considered Valyrian steel due to Tywin melting it down and reforging it. Also, Valyrian Steel is described to have distinct patterns. They could be enchantments or something "magical."

[Veltigar]

From dance. It was also mentioned in the Sons of the Dragon reading. So there should no longer be any question that Valyrian Steel is forged in dragonflame.

Yeah, I have been saying this for the entirety of the thread.

Um, Valyria. The Targs had dragons but they didn't make Valyrian Steel. Balerion was even used to help forge the Iron Throne.

The Qohoriks can rework Valyrian Steel, but I don't think they've ever succeeded in making it from scratch.

Yeah, because the Qohorik lack dragonflame. TWOIAF clearly shows that dark things are at work in Qohor and that they use blood sacrifices to forge better blades. They also know the spells, since they are able to rework Valyrian Steel. The only thing they had no acces to were the dragons. Targaryens on the other hand had dragons, but not the spells.

Valyrian steel sounds like German or Japanese Steel. Its the art and craft of the Steel that distinguishes itself from others. There will never be smiths who could forge weapons with the same craftsmanship.

I wonder if its fair to say that Ice is no longer considered Valyrian steel due to Tywin melting it down and reforging it. Also, Valyrian Steel is described to have distinct patterns. They could be enchantments or something "magical."

Damascus steel. Valyrian Steel has the dark patterns and in olden times people used to believe that to create Damascus steel blade, the nife needed to be plunged to the hilt in a muscular slave. GRRM took that urban legend and made it into a reality for VS.

Save your eyerolls. GRRM is perfectly capable of being straight forward and not overly complex or convoluted.

:agree:

You misunderstood. I said if Dragonsteel IS NOT Valyrian Steel, then DRAGONSTEEL is weapons made of dragon bone.

I did not say that dragonbone was used in Valyrian Steel.

Clearly, the world still knows what dragonbone is. So that theory is plausible, just not probable.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know what quantities of blood sacrifices were necessary to create a Valyrian steel sword. If it was, say, 25-50 people per blade, I imagine this would have become hugely impractical for the Targaryens once they settled on Dragonstone - and virtually impossible if it was 50-100 or more.

If the Qohorik had the spells, Aenar should have known them, too. After all, he was a dragonlord while the rulers of Qohor were not (Aurion was just a visiting dragonlord, not a Qohorik himself).

Dragonsteel would be simply the name for the most primitive of the fire magic-based swords created around the time of the Long Night. If the historical Lightbringer did exist it may have been the first/one of the first swords created in that fashion - during a human blood sacrifice and fire magic/dragonflame.

The whole idea about Lightbringer actually burning hot/emanating heat may just be nonsense. After all, obsidian isn't hot to human hands, either, in Martinworld, yet it melts down the Others as if it was hot. Valyrian steel/dragonsteel could have a similar effect without ever being hot to human hands.

Considering the amount of perfection the Valyrians reached in their craft of making magical steel the historical Lightbringer might be a joke compared to it, and the remaining ~200 Valyrian steel swords in Westeros might actually be of some help in the coming war - if the Others are stupid enough to face their bearers in open combat (which I would not do), and if their bearers can be united into a single force (very unlikely unless a monarch unites the Realm who recognizes the threat and forces the lords to work in unison).

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

Clearly, the world still knows what dragonbone is. So that theory is plausible, just not probable.

Well they'd know it's the bone of a dragon, but they would not necessarily know that it's important in defeating a foe so ancient that 99% of their world doesn't believe they exist anymore. And likely the details died along with the dragons. What good is it to study the properties of the bones of a creature that's been extinct for 100+ years?

Tyrion, having read that book from Winterfell's library can tell them that dragonbone is 1) black due to its high iron content; 2) lighter than steel; 3) far more flexible than steel; and 4) impervious to flame. Those sound like rather important qualities. And that book is long since gone (thank you, Ramsay) so unless there's another copy in Westeros, Tyrion may be the only person left who knows it. Maybe Marwyn. But there's no way it's common knowledge.

[Mithras]

Save your eyerolls. GRRM is perfectly capable of being straight forward and not overly complex or convoluted.

Not when it comes to magic. George specifically designs magical aspects to be ambigious. He does not have clearcut formulas.

[Veltigar]

Well they'd know it's the bone of a dragon, but they would not necessarily know that it's important in defeating a foe so ancient that 99% of their world doesn't believe they exist anymore. And likely the details died along with the dragons. What good is it to study the properties of the bones of a creature that's been extinct for 100+ years?

No, I'm talking semantics here. If they know what dragonbone is than why wasn't it translated to dragonbone?

If the Qohorik had the spells, Aenar should have known them, too. After all, he was a dragonlord while the rulers of Qohor were not (Aurion was just a visiting dragonlord, not a Qohorik himself).

Aenar was a dragonlord, we have no indication that he was also a sorcerer prince. Actually we have the indication that he was not, since the Targaryens were only of midtier importance in the Freehold and the sorcerer princes were the elite of Valyria. Besides, Valyrian magic was highly complex. It stands to reason that there were very little Leonardo Da Vinci types of Uomo Universalis who knew everything about it.

We also don't know the specifics of the production really. Perhaps the Qohorik had certain arcane books in their possession that allowed them to crack the code. Perhaps VS was only produced by certain families in the Free Hold and the Qohorik just happened to descent from people closely tied to that house in particular. Perhaps some people who used to assist the sorcerer princes were living in Tyrosh and saw that their knowledge offered opportunity, etc.

We don't know what quantities of blood sacrifices were necessary to create a Valyrian steel sword. If it was, say, 25-50 people per blade, I imagine this would have become hugely impractical for the Targaryens once they settled on Dragonstone - and virtually impossible if it was 50-100 or more.

Yeah, one problem with that reasoning though :) Valyrian Steel blades were so costly that they were seemingly worth the price on army. If they really were that valuable, the Targaryens could easily have procured slaves for the production of VS. After all, there were several active slave markets close to Dragonstone and the Targaryens had a fleet and dragons to raid Westerosi ships and shores to claim more people for blood sacrifices.

Not when it comes to magic. George specifically designs magical aspects to be ambigious. He does not have clearcut formulas.

What exactly is not ambigious about VS/DS/Dawn might I ask? They seem to be good at killing both Others and other people, but in order to make such a blade (a) living person(s) needs to be sacrificed. How is that not morally complex and ambigious?

[Lord Varys]

Velt,

well, perhaps the Targaryens continued to make some Valyrian steel after the Doom. We don't know that yet. However, killing lots of slaves to make Valyrian steel this close to Westeros and without the power of the entire Freehold at their back would have been a very daring and dangerous idea. Not to mention that the Century of Blood most likely also had an impact on the slave trade.

And Aenar may actually have been a sorcerer prince as it is confirmed that he had multiple wives - which is described as a trait of the sorcerer princes. But since dragonflame apparently played a role in the making of Valyrian steel I'd assume the dragonlords were highly involved in that king of thing - as they provided the dragons necessary to do the whole thing.

[Mithras]

Targaryens made neither VS nor fused stone structures in Westeros. The most reasonable explanation is that they didnot have that knowledge/skill.

[Lord Varys]

Well, they had some slaves with them on Dragonstone. Eventually they were gone. Perhaps they simply died or were freed. But perhaps they also were sacrificed by Aenar or Gaemon. We simply don't know that yet.

Fused stone may be a thing they had no idea how to make. Or it required more dragons than the Targaryens ever had - even during the days of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I.

[Veltigar]

Velt,

well, perhaps the Targaryens continued to make some Valyrian steel after the Doom. We don't know that yet. However, killing lots of slaves to make Valyrian steel this close to Westeros and without the power of the entire Freehold at their back would have been a very daring and dangerous idea. Not to mention that the Century of Blood most likely also had an impact on the slave trade.

The VS point could very well have happened. We don't know how the knowledge got lost then, but we have those suspicious shrinkings of the family tree on I think two occassions between Aenar and Ageon the Conqueror. I don't know who first suggested that, but there was some speculation about internal strive (i.e. a mini Dance of Dragons). The knowledge might well have been lost there. Otherwise it is strange that Aegon didn't fashion any blades for Rhaenys and Orys.

Although, I think it's more likely that Aenar just didn't know the proper spells. I think if the Targaryens did indeed still produce some VS, GRRM missed the ball in his worldbuilding a bit. You would expect that some of the Houses with VS blades could then say they have gotten them of the Targaryens for a hefty price or as a reward for services rendered (e.g. The Starks for bending the knee without fighting).

As to your other points I don't really see it to be honest. The closest parts of Westeros were small Kingdom's (like that of House Darklyn) who couldn't threaten the Targaryens at all. The Targaryens seem to have been practically unassailable on their island. They had a castle made with Valyrian magic, a grand fleet which they used to extort shipping in their waters, probably a comparable amount of soldiers to Stannis in ACOK (5000) and three sizeable dragons.

Plus the wars will not have interfered with slave markets that much imo. Aside from Braavos, which mostly seemed to have kept out of the conflict, all the other parties were slave states. War is also the ideal way to create a nice continuing flow of new slaves, so the Century of Blood might have actually meant a bigger inflow of slaves in the system. And let's not forget that even a disrupted slave market would probably find a way to reach the Targaryens, if VS is really as valuable as we are lead to believe. Some of the Free States (I'm specifically thinking Volantis) might have actively cooperate with the Targaryens if they needed slaves for VS. All to help further the resemblance of the Free State.

And Aenar may actually have been a sorcerer prince as it is confirmed that he had multiple wives - which is described as a trait of the sorcerer princes. But since dragonflame apparently played a role in the making of Valyrian steel I'd assume the dragonlords were highly involved in that king of thing - as they provided the dragons necessary to do the whole thing.

Hmm, I had forgotten about that. Perhaps the sorcerer princes only used their own dragons for the process?

Targaryens made neither VS nor fused stone structures in Westeros. The most reasonable explanation is that they didnot have that knowledge/skill.

yeah, this is the explanation I myself favour. It takes the least amount of time to explain really and it ties in nicely with the Damascus Steel inspiration (those techniques were forgotten as a result of various things, including the loss of knowhow).