Dragonsteel is not Valaryan Steel.

[ChaosImprisonateMe]

It seems like they would be different. Valaryan steel seems something a bit special and created by a lost art. It may be magical or something. But I think the fact it would be called Valaryan Steel indicates craftsmenship where Dragon Steel seems to imply the specialty in the material or flame.

[jon316]

Valaryan steel = dragonsteel no question

[Ser Wun Wun]

I believe that Valyrian Steel is Dragonsteel, it just makes too much sense for it not to be. The idea that some other mystical metal is going to come up in this series just doesn't make sense. Why come up with Valyrian Steel at all if you intended a different kind of steel to actually be of use in the Long Night? Yet, the Children worked no metal, and there is no mention of any other people having tamed dragons, so how could Valyrian Steel have existed during the first Long Night?

Rather than speculate that some other people once tamed Dragons before Valyrians in order to make the stuff, I think the simplest explanation that solves the chronology issue is that is that there was no Last Hero at all during the first Long Night. Therefore there was no dragonsteel during that time either.

The Last Hero is actually a prophecy imo. There will be a Hero who wields a blade of Dragonsteel that the Others cannot stand against, and that hero seems to be Jon Snow with his Valyrian Steel blade. Dragonsteel is only mentioned during one exchange in the novels, and before he brings it up Sam acknowledges that none of the accounts he read were actually from the time of the First Men. They were written thousands of years later by Andals. Somewhere along the line the Last Hero legend got twisted into a tale of what was, rather than what will be.

[Lord Varys]

There is no evidence that dragonsteel is indeed Valyrian steel, and vice versa. Valyrian steel may very well be magical steel based on the same basic 'fire and blood' magic the Valyrians later refined and improved on, but it is very unlikely that they are the same. Unless Valyria is indeed much older than we previously believed, or the Long Night occurred much later then we think - the latter certainly would be a possibility.

We also don't have to go the 'dragonsteel is Asshai'i stuff' road as nothing suggests that the ancient First Men and Children may not have been able to master certain basic fire magic techniques - say, creating a Valyrian steel-type of steel from bronze using dragon fire and blood magic. This may then have not been as strong a magical steel as the later created Valyrian steel.

Dragonsteel may not have been exactly well-known during the ancient times because you had to have dragons and work blood magic and sacrifice people to make it - something that wasn't done easily or casually back then. Blood sacrifice was apparently done by the Children when they severed Westeros from Essos, but that would have been a huge magical event.

But the Valyrians later had slaves to sacrifice in abundance later on, and their need for ever more slaves apparently was caused by their need to uphold and maintain many of their spells.

[Modesty Lannister]

Just the opening post.

Well, you jumped the gun here. Your assessment that GRRM 'shut the idea down" was discussed on the thread and even Ran joined in to explain and clarify some things. So, read it first. It is a good read all through.

[Veltigar]

Alright I have a formula that will please most people:

Dragonsteel = Iron ore + Dragonflame + Blood sacrifice

Valyrian Steel = Iron ore + Dragonflame + Blood sacrifice + a Valyrian smith

Dawn = Heart of a Fallen Star + Dragonflame + Blood sacrifice

Slight caveat: Dragonsteel might also be a reference to the actual sword Dawn. In which case dragonsteel = Dawn. Although I'm pretty sure that Valyrian Steel also has the effects on the Others like we see in the show (which is semi-canon imo).

Well, you jumped the gun here. Your assessment that GRRM 'shut the idea down" was discussed on the thread and even Ran joined in to explain and clarify some things. So, read it first. It is a good read all through.

Well, no I clearly didn't miss out on anything since Ran himself pointed out that the SSM in this case (and most cases) was valid semi-canon knowledge. This was his exact post:

Re: SSM,

As RumHam says, things that are "in error" are in error now because George changed his mind. One of the things we note in the SSM is that everything George says is provisional -- he reserves his right to change his mind. Has he changed his mind about dragonbone not being part of Valyrian steel? I strongly doubt it, personally, but I won't rule it out.

As to provenance, most entries in the correspondence section are from e-mails forwarded to us, with headers and all. Could they be forged? Yes, but it takes quite a lot of knowledge to do it right, and the thing is I knew what headers going to and from GRRM's local SMTPs on AOL looked like, so I'd see something fishy if someone tried to do it.

Now, I can't specifically recall where tyrion_targaryen's came from, although the way it's written tells me it wasn't an email, but actually a discussion on AIM (back in the day, people could actually get a hold of GRRM over AIM) which was copied over to me and which matched the details I would expect to see in a legitimate AIM chat.

To my knowledge, only one piece of information was ever placed in the SSM that was an outright invention by a fan, a matter that was corrected when we were informed about it. There have been, as RumHam said, errors in that sometimes someone transcribed something incorrectly, but this was straight-up an electronic communication between George and tyrion_targaryen, so no transcription necessary.

You are of course free to argue against it. Heck, some people even argue against canon material. However, the fact that this SSM is out there means that the likelihood of your theory decreases to about zero procent.

If VS turns out NOT to be DS, I say that dragonsteel is weapons made of dragonbone. The clues are in Tyrion's second chapter of AGoT.

Already debunked by GRRM. No dragonbones were used in the making of VS.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Some facts based on our best knowledge at this time:

1. Dragonsteel pre-dated the Valyrian Empire.

2. Valyrian steel emulates the same achievements (killing Others) that Dragonsteel was reportedly capable of.

This makes it pretty clear that Dragonsteel was made in a similar way to Valyrian steel. Whether they are exactly the same, and the identity of who made the original Dragonsteel, is open to speculation. All we know is that whoever made the original Dragonsteel did so before there were Valyrians capable of doing so.

Whether it was the Childen and the First Men, as Lord Varys suggests, or some Asshaii ancient sorcerors we cannot really say at this stage.

Personally, I was not that sure that the Bronze Age First Men were capable of producing that level of technology, even in isolated cases.

However if the unique aspect common to Valyrian and Dragonsteel blades is not the quality or type of the metal, but rather some spell that is cast on it, then it certainly becomes possible. For example, if Dragonsteel was actually just Bronze, tempered with dragonfire and blood sacrifice thus giving it the ability to kill Others, then the Children and First Men forging such blades becomes very possible.

[Mithras]

There are many things we do not know for sure about ancient people during the Long Night and their weaponcraft.

Many legends have come down to us through the millennia of the salt kings and reavers who made the Sunset Sea their own, men as wild and cruel and fearless as any who have ever lived. Thus we hear of the likes of Torgon the Terrible, Jorl the Whale, Dagon Drumm the necromancer, Hrothgar of Pyke and his krakensummoning horn, and Ragged Ralf of Old Wyk.

Most infamous of all was Balon Blackskin, who fought with an axe in his left hand and a hammer in his right. No weapon made of man could harm him, it was said; swords glanced off and left no mark, and axes shattered against his skin.

Did such men ever truly walk the earth? It is hard to know since most supposedly lived and died thousands of years before the ironmen learned to write; literacy remains rare in the Iron Islands to this day, and those who have the skill are oft mocked as weaklings or feared as sorcerers. So much of what we know of these demigods of the dawn comes to us from the peoples they plundered and preyed upon, written in the Old Tongue and the runes of the First Men.

The lands the reavers plundered were densely wooded but thinly peopled in those days. Then as now, the ironborn were loath to go too far from the salt waters that sustained them, but they ruled the Sunset Sea from Bear Island and the Frozen Shore down to the Arbor. The feeble fishing boats and trading cogs of the First Men, which seldom ventured out of sight of land, were no match for the swift longships of the ironmen with their great sails and banks of oars. And when battle was joined upon the shores, mighty kings and famous warriors fell before the reavers like wheat before a scythe, in such numbers that the men of the green lands told each other that the ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.

Apparently, the ironborn in the Age of Heroes had superior weapon technology against whatever weapons the Greenlanders had (mostly bronze I guess). Balon Blackskin seems like he was wearing some heavy plate armor and seemed invulnerable much like Victarion in The Reaver.

Even today, the weapon smiths of the Iron Islands are the best in Westeros. Just like the Valyrians, the ironborn used slave labor in their mines. Those soul drinking black weapons of the reavers might have been empowered by blood sacrifices of the slaves.

[Mithras]

BTW, in the real world, war hammers were developed as a consequence of the prevalence of surface-hardened steel surfacing of wrought iron armors of the late medieval battlefields during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. The surface of the armor was now as hard as the edge of a blade, so a blade tended to ricochet. Swords and battleaxes were likely to only give a glancing blow, losing much of the impact, especially on the high curvature of the helmet. The war hammer could deliver the full force to the target.

I also do not know any bronze war hammers except in video games. So, Balon Blackskin’s weapons should be made of iron. Moreover, his hammer should be made against other ironborn rivals with good iron armors and his axe against the bronze helmets/scale armors of the First Men.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Alright I have a formula that will please most people:

Dragonsteel = Iron ore + Dragonflame + Blood sacrifice

Valyrian Steel = Iron ore + Dragonflame + Blood sacrifice + a Valyrian smith

Dawn = Heart of a Fallen Star + Dragonflame + Blood sacrifice

Slight caveat: Dragonsteel might also be a reference to the actual sword Dawn. In which case dragonsteel = Dawn. Although I'm pretty sure that Valyrian Steel also has the effects on the Others like we see in the show (which is semi-canon imo).

Well, no I clearly didn't miss out on anything since Ran himself pointed out that the SSM in this case (and most cases) was valid semi-canon knowledge. This was his exact post:

You are of course free to argue against it. Heck, some people even argue against canon material. However, the fact that this SSM is out there means that the likelihood of your theory decreases to about zero procent.

Already debunked by GRRM. No dragonbones were used in the making of VS.

Killjoy.

[Lost Melnibonean]

There are many things we do not know for sure about ancient people during the Long Night and their weaponcraft.

Many legends have come down to us through the millennia of the salt kings and reavers who made the Sunset Sea their own, men as wild and cruel and fearless as any who have ever lived. Thus we hear of the likes of Torgon the Terrible, Jorl the Whale, Dagon Drumm the necromancer, Hrothgar of Pyke and his krakensummoning horn, and Ragged Ralf of Old Wyk.

Most infamous of all was Balon Blackskin, who fought with an axe in his left hand and a hammer in his right. No weapon made of man could harm him, it was said; swords glanced off and left no mark, and axes shattered against his skin.

Did such men ever truly walk the earth? It is hard to know since most supposedly lived and died thousands of years before the ironmen learned to write; literacy remains rare in the Iron Islands to this day, and those who have the skill are oft mocked as weaklings or feared as sorcerers. So much of what we know of these demigods of the dawn comes to us from the peoples they plundered and preyed upon, written in the Old Tongue and the runes of the First Men.

The lands the reavers plundered were densely wooded but thinly peopled in those days. Then as now, the ironborn were loath to go too far from the salt waters that sustained them, but they ruled the Sunset Sea from Bear Island and the Frozen Shore down to the Arbor. The feeble fishing boats and trading cogs of the First Men, which seldom ventured out of sight of land, were no match for the swift longships of the ironmen with their great sails and banks of oars. And when battle was joined upon the shores, mighty kings and famous warriors fell before the reavers like wheat before a scythe, in such numbers that the men of the green lands told each other that the ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.

Apparently, the ironborn in the Age of Heroes had superior weapon technology against whatever weapons the Greenlanders had (mostly bronze I guess). Balon Blackskin seems like he was wearing some heavy plate armor and seemed invulnerable much like Victarion in The Reaver.

Even today, the weapon smiths of the Iron Islands are the best in Westeros. Just like the Valyrians, the ironborn used slave labor in their mines. Those soul drinking black weapons of the reavers might have been empowered by blood sacrifices of the slaves.

Those foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew could have been an allusion to Elric's Stormbringer.

[Lord Varys]

If I remember correctly, then Ran assumes that the very ancient Asshai'i - those building the city and possibly building other gigantic structures in Essos like the Five Forts - may actually have been another extinct non-human species/people. If that was the case then those proto-Asshai'i I, too, have cited as the possible originators of the dragonbreeding/dragonbonding magic may be (partially) wrong as I don't think that those non-human Asshai'i were still around at the time of the Long Night or around the time of the founding of Valyria. However, certain magical traditions influencing both the Valyrians and the people fighting against the Others during the Long Night may have been influenced by the remnants of those ancient non-human Asshai'i - possibly by being passed down through history by actually human ancient Asshai'i living at Asshai after those non-humans had left.

[Veltigar]

Killjoy.

Someone has to do it :p

[Mithras]

Those foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew could have been an allusion to Elric's Stormbringer.

And it is related to the blood sacrifices in VS swords. The VS drinks the souls of those sacrificed in the forging. Just like the Ice drank Ned's soul (at least partially). That is why we have those extraordinary patterns in Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. Even for VS, these swords stand out as unique.

[LordStoneheart]

I think the case that VS is not Dragonsteel is just plain overthinking the timeline and history into something convoluted. I doubt GRRM really intended for this to be ambiguous. When the obsidian was revealed in aSoS, the first thing Sam notices while laughing is that it was called dragon glass, with the word dragon italicized in the text. Dragons, fire, Valyrians, Valyrian steel's emphasis in the story, melting ice. It's all pretty easy to connect. I think the problem is that people think it's too easy and needs to be more complex. It doesn't.

[Mithras]

I doubt GRRM really intended for this to be ambiguous.

Sweet summer child :rolleyes:

[Ingelheim]

I think the case that VS is not Dragonsteel is just plain overthinking the timeline and history into something convoluted. I doubt GRRM really intended for this to be ambiguous. When the obsidian was revealed in aSoS, the first thing Sam notices while laughing is that it was called dragon glass, with the word dragon italicized in the text. Dragons, fire, Valyrians, Valyrian steel's emphasis in the story, melting ice. It's all pretty easy to connect. I think the problem is that people think it's too easy and needs to be more complex. It doesn't.

Actually, it isn't. The Long Night happened 8000 years ago; the Valyrian Freehold started to raise 5500 years ago.

We are discussing if Valyrian Steel is a kind of dragonsteel. Which I believe it is. The same as Dawn.

[Mithras]

We do not know the full story of the Last Hero as told by Old Nan. The account Sam has found includes the term dragonsteel but we cannot be sure as of yet whether dragonsteel was a term coined by the Andals when they tried to translate the runes of the First Men or it was the First Men who named it like this after the Old Tongue was abandoned in favor of the Common Tongue.

In any case, Common Tongue did not exist during the time of the Last Hero and "dragonsteel" is certainly a translation whether by the Andals or the First Men themselves. As Aemon pointed, errors creep in translations.

There is a nice metaphor about the Wall and dragonsteel. It is said that the Wall is a sword in the east but a snake in the west, due to its shape. That description is equal to dragonsteel.

[RoamingRonin]

We do not know the full story of the Last Hero as told by Old Nan. The account Sam has found includes the term dragonsteel but we cannot be sure as of yet whether dragonsteel was a term coined by the Andals when they tried to translate the runes of the First Men or it was the First Men who named it like this after the Old Tongue was abandoned in favor of the Common Tongue.

In any case, Common Tongue did not exist during the time of the Last Hero and "dragonsteel" is certainly a translation whether by the Andals or the First Men themselves. As Aemon pointed, errors creep in translations.

There is a nice metaphor about the Wall and dragonsteel. It is said that the Wall is a sword in the east but a snake in the west, due to its shape. That description is equal to dragonsteel.

I just want to be clear here: you are saying that dragonsteel is the Wall, correct?

[RedShirt47]

When they talk about Dragon Fire used to forge Valyrian Steel do they mean falme actually breathed by a dragon or is it symbolic of the Valyrian Volcano fires?

If the latter than could the Dragon Steel have been forged in Hardhome? It went boom a bit like Valyria did, pointing to similar volcanic activity.