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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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Lol at jamie lannister fans defending his character.

Very solid episode except them making jon snow a bumbling fool again for the 7th straight episode.

Ygritte is KILLING it.

Jon is a bumbling fool, have you read Dance with Dragons??

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I get its an adaptation, and based solely on 1 hour of entertainment value, I say it's about an 8-9.

Some departures from the book I am *loving* -- for instance, the Tywin/Arya combo (I really do love these 2 together). Some departures I can't stand (Jaime killing the Lanister? Uh... No way). And if Qhorin doesn't give Jon the order, I'll throw my TV thru the window, but I think he IS going to give the order, just under different circumstances. So I think Jon's storyline is safe. (As far as Jaime's, tonight changed the whole character imo--family means something to Jaime, but it sure as hell didn't translate to screen).

However, here is what I want to know: All the things they are skipping, it makes me wonder if those elements will not be important in the series, and they know that. For instance: The boys hiding in the Winterfell crypts (and removing the swords), Jon's connection with Ghost, Jaime's redemption, etc.

In other words, are we finding out now that certain things I thought would be important in Books 6/7 are just throw-away details? I mean, I like the show, but compared to the books, it's just "eh" for me. Worth an hour of my time for sure, best show on TV for sure and I hope it's renewed for all 7-8 seasons--but I kinda feel like some things from future books are being spoiled by the way they are playing out the show.

ETA: I love Ygritte, too! The TV show improved my thoughts on her :-)

Edited by ipsuel

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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I loved the subtle hint an Tywin sill being a ruthless bastard. He didn't feed Arya to be nice, it's because he thought the food may have been poisoned. He had just got through saying that someonoe was trying to kill him, had a suspicious glance at Arya, then made her eat the food she just brought him. I loved it.

Although I do think the Bran + Rickon storyline was handled quite poorly from a writing/directing standpoint. It was glaringly obvious that the bodies weren't thiers,

Edited by Nuttz

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I think he said "lowborn girls" not "noble girls".

I think you are quite right.

Serves me right for using bad subtitles and not bothering to listen properly =P

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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I loved the subtle hint an Tywin sill being a ruthless bastard. He didn't feed Arya to be nice, it's because he thought the food may have been poisoned. He had just got through saying that someonoe was trying to kill him, had a suspicious glance at Arya, then made her eat the food she just brought him. I loved it.

Yep, and then he drove her out =P

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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I loved the subtle hint an Tywin sill being a ruthless bastard. He didn't feed Arya to be nice, it's because he thought the food may have been poisoned. He had just got through saying that someonoe was trying to kill him, had a suspicious glance at Arya, then made her eat the food she just brought him. I loved it.

Although I do think the Bran + Rickon storyline was handled quite poorly from a writing/directing standpoint. It was glaringly obvious that the bodies weren't thiers,

Hmmm really? I didn't take it that way at all. I get the vibe he actually really likes/respects Arya (well as much as he can respect a little girl cup-bearer anyway). I'll have to rewind but I really didn't get that.

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I was a little surprised that They showed Catelyn about to free Jaime before she 'finds out' about Bran and Rickon being killed by Theon. WOuld have made her decision as a desperate and depressed mother that much more powerful.

I think they showed that she had to move fast before he was killed and she lost the hostage that could allow her to get her girls back.

Very excited to hear the Mountain mention the BwB.!"

Oh yes, almost forgot that! :)

Jamie finally gets something to do! As does Rickon. I wonder if the two actors practiced lines together to make sure their performances in this episode were extra special.

LOL! :D

Because Rickon has been crushing walnuts all season and Osha specifically talked about Rickon eating them "Rickon can't survive on walnuts"..."I'm fine!" or something of that nature during their lamb scene. Not sure how much more time we could have spent on walnuts this season to give that scene more meaning lol.

Yes, I get that! But I didn't really get why Dagmer finding some crushed walnut would make him and Theon immediately think of Rickon! It is not as if the family on that farm could not have eaten walnuts. Just seemed such a weird thing to connect Rickon and Bran to that location.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I loved the subtle hint an Tywin sill being a ruthless bastard. He didn't feed Arya to be nice, it's because he thought the food may have been poisoned. He had just got through saying that someonoe was trying to kill him, had a suspicious glance at Arya, then made her eat the food she just brought him. I loved it.

Yeah I did get that impression too! I can envisage a scene when Tywin leaves Harrenhal where he gives Arya a cold look as he leaves, showing that as much as they might've enjoyed a chat or three, he doesn't give a crap about her.

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Is it just me, or might Talisa be Jeyne Westerling after all? The Crag mention, and her being all happy about going there together with Robb.

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Yes, I get that! But I didn't really get why Dagmer finding some crushed walnut would make him and Theon immediately think of Rickon! It is not as if the family on that farm could not have eaten walnuts. Just seemed such a weird thing to connect Rickon and Bran to that location.

Well there was the part in the earlier episode where Rickon was crushing the walnuts with that rocks. Theon never saw this, but maybe it was a common thing for Rickon to do? At least in the show-canon.

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Just - not good. Way too many changes being made to the storyline as the writers/producers try to balance out screen-time for all characters, and give all of them something to do, while at the same time shoe-horning everything into ten episodes.

The first thing that came to mind in the Qarth murder scene was - "they have pre-empted the Red Wedding", swiflty followed by "they have jumped the shark". XXD as king of Qarth, working with Pyat Pree? No thank you. There was nothing wrong with how Qarth situation was pictured in the books, and handled by good directors and writers it could have been transferred to the screen without such drastic changes.

Tywin and Arya were a good screen couple the first couple of times on-screen, but it's getting repetitive, and is making Tywin less of an impressive character.

Jon and Ygritte wandering all over the place for the sake of some nice scenery and endless childish sex talk. Meaningless filler. And Ghost has conveniently disappeared.

I have more or less given up on this season. Blackwater may be good, and Bran and Rickon leaving Winterfell. Otherwise, all I can hope is that the adaptation of SoS benefits from being split over twenty episodes.

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Is it just me, or might Talisa be Jeyne Westerling after all? The Crag mention, and her being all happy about going there together with Robb.

I am beginning to think so ... but wouldn´t Robb have noticed different accents, the Common Tongue with a High Valyrian accent is likely abit different than a Westerlands accent.

Also, how likely is it that she as the daughter of a noble house would be allowed to walk around all alone, unattended, without guards, in the middle of an enemy camp right during a war??? It is unthinkable.

We know that local dialects vary strongly because Pyp can tell where a man comes from just from listening to him.

but maybe the scriptwriters just didn´t account for that, wouldn´t exactly be the first time.

Edited by BlackTalon

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Why do people act like they know what Tywin was like behind closed doors. There is no Tywin POV. So, to sit here and say " this is totally not how he would act" is completely off base. All we know of Tywin is from other characters POV. The way he is treating Arya is how I imagined he would treat Cersei for years after I read her POV chapters.

And on the topic of Cersei, I'm pretty sure she isn't batshit crazy in the books till after Joffs death. Still a cold bitch, but not nuts. And her weeping for Joff being nuts isn't really too out of character.

Do you not remember then scene when Tywin rips Tyrion a new arse. Hes a dick..

you have a higher crazy tolerance than I

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im still wrapping my head around jaime killing this relative.....it is just so out of character for him :( :( :(

Well, it is not completely out of character. Tyrion did think in ACoK that Jaime was quite likely to kill Lancel if he found out that Cersei was sleeping with her cousin. Nor did Jaime care for or mourn Ser Cleos Frey, whom Alton replaced.

And unlike in the books, they didn't actually depict kinslaying as particularly damning in Westerosi culture in the show so far.

But it makes zero sense for Jaime to have to actually kill Alton in order to lure the guard in. After those touching reminiscences, no less, to make it even more dastardly. Mere altercation/pretense should have served much better.

It is also a pity that we weren't shown Jaime laying about him with the sword and killing lots of people before he was overpowered. Room for demonstrating his supreme skill as a warrior is quickly running out.

Re: Tywin and Arya, now that he has figured out that she is highborn, it will be a bit unbelievable for him to leave her behind in Harrenhal. Also, who could he think she was? A young northern noble, somehow caught in the Riverlands when the war broke out? There can't be many possibilities.

Re: warlocks of Qarth, didn't they want to use Dany's fiery life-force to fuel their magics/immortality in ACoK? That "be with her babies forever" seems to include the dragons in their scheme and spells their intentions much more clearly. I like it. Dany being used as a pawn by Daxos in his power-play was well-done IMHO.

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I am beginning to think so ... but wouldn´t Robb have noticed different accents, the Common Tongue with a High Valyrian accent is likely abit different than a Westerlands accent.

Also, how likely is it that she as the daughter of a noble house would be allowed to walk around all alone, unattended, without guards, in the middle of an enemy camp right during a war??? It is unthinkable.

We know that local dialects vary strongly because Pyp can tell where a man comes from just from listening to him.

but maybe the scriptwriters just didn´t account for that, wouldn´t exactly be the first time.

I'm not so sure on that. Besides, as some of the conspiracy theorists have argued on these boards.. Lady Westerling might even have send her out there on purpose to get in contact with Robb. The accents thing might come into play, but i can't say it really sounds all that different from the rest of the Westerlands characters.

Hopefully we will see some of the Crag next episode, and things will be explained. Didn't HBO officially announce at first that Chaplin was playing a certain Jeyne?

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Book Jaime didn't care about Cersei's kids, just her. What about his "chastisement" of Ned by killing Jory and the other Northmen? Who did that serve?

Thus I called them her kids. He loves her and she loves them, thus he must protect them. I do think book Jaime has a few minor yearnings to be their dad in the books, though all may be said to Cersei, so he could be saying it for her benefit. In any case, that is a reason to kill Bran. They are dead if he leaves that tower. No if, no ands, no buts. Dead.

Ned/Jory and co. were soldiers. The Starks kidnapped Tyrion (who Jaime also loves), and he is angry so he attacks them. No one accused him of being cold and calculating all the time. Killing enemy soldiers who attacked your family is not unreasonable (by Westeros standards). The same thing with Brienne, she is an enemy soldier, she is fair game. He is respecting her as a soldier (and not some joke girl in armor like most of the men do) by plotting to kill her in order to escape. Oddly, those thoughts raise him in my book.

If they had built the scene that Jaime needed to escape to protect Joffery and Kings Landing, i would have accepted it. They made a point to make that whole scene about how Jaime does not like being prisoner. That's it. That's why you must die, cousin. (Note I have no problem with him killing Karstark, he is an enemy in war and fair game)

Because Rickon has been crushing walnuts all season and Osha specifically talked about Rickon eating them "Rickon can't survive on walnuts"..."I'm fine!" or something of that nature during their lamb scene. Not sure how much more time we could have spent on walnuts this season to give that scene more meaning lol.

And how does this relate to Theon and Dagmer? Maybe they showed them finding some walnut shells on the trail, and cut it. It's extra weird, considering what he calls Theon over there to discuss. "Here is evidence the boys were here, but F that, lets just kill this family and pretend their boys are Bran and Rickon." If those were evidence of the boys, they should have upped their search. If they weren't, it makes no sense at all.

I expect the 4 of them are back in the crypts already, They were showing walking by a stream, because they knew they were hours ahead of their pursuers. Osha said as much. Did people expect to see them creeping from tree to tree like a cartoon? We never saw them after they came to the miller's house. I think the 4 of them hiding in the crypts while Winterfell burns down (next episode? It's a good end point for it) is too good of a scene to skip.

Side note: when I am teasing the Purists, I am having a bit of fun with you. I am always amused by fans of source material complaining about changes in adaptations. I don't understand why the people who hate the show continue to watch it, but that's not for me to choose what they do. As for complaining about the show, no worries here, I've had plenty for the 17 of these threads we've made so far...

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<snip>

Hopefully we will see some of the Crag next episode, and things will be explained. Didn't HBO officially announce at first that Chaplin was playing a certain Jeyne?

yep... i was gonna say that but thought it best not to spoil for those who didn't know... but yeah, i think she was hired to play jeyne and it was pretty publicly announced.

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I forgot to say, of course she's Jeyne. Other than wearing a "Hi my name is..." tag with Jeyne scribbled out on it, I don't think this could be more clear. Now, maybe they are changing her name or maybe she is "In Burrito", but she is filling the role of Jeyne. I'm not sure what folks see in her...

"Milady (I'm highborn), you are about to destroy an army and kill your future husband, why the long face?"

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We know that local dialects vary strongly because Pyp can tell where a man comes from just from listening to him.

We know no such thing. Pyp is presented as something of a prodigy because of this ability, but nobody recognized Arya's northern accent during her interminable travels through the Riverlands - not even the other Northmen! Not even Bolton himself. Ditto with Sansa in the Vale. I always felt that it was a big oversight in the books.

They clearly compressed Jeyne's family tree. In the show it is likely her mother and not her grandmother, who was a foreigner and maegi. Talise/Jeyne was probably mimicking her accent and learned the healing skills from her. Also, it seems to me that she was indeed spying for Tywin (again serving as an amalgam of her various relatives in the books), but is going to get a change of heart.

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How do you love it? It is beyond uncharacteristic for Lord Tywin.

No it's not. Arya encorporates everything that made House Lannister one of the great houses of Westeros. It is absolutely believable that Tywin would respect her and enjoy conversations with her.

And yet he still has no qualms about her dying, which is why he let her taste his food.

And then he goes burning villages down because one of his men was assassinated.

This IS Tywin Lannister in his truest form.

I loved this ep. Especially all that background info. Harrenhal, Aegon's sisters, "Dark Sister", the nature of Targaeryan madness, Jaime's days as a squire, Valyria being a death zone.

It felt soo much like actually reading the books.

They also went and made the Qarth plot awesome. It wasn't in the books.

Ygritte is a fucking riot.

There's literally nothing in this episode that i didn't like.

As for Bran and Rickon's wherabouts, I think they're already in the crypts. In their scene, Osha made it quite clear, that continuing to run would be pointless.

So, I guess that's when they decided to go back and hide.

Edited by Spidey

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