When is 'The World Of Ice and Fire' coming out?

[HouseHarrison]

The inability to release a fairly simple coffee table/atlas book and instead pushing it back year after year does not give me much hope for TWOW....

[Werthead]

The inability to release a fairly simple coffee table/atlas book and instead pushing it back year after year does not give me much hope for TWOW....

It's a far more complex process. First, there's coordination between GRRM and Ran/Linda to arrange. GRRM has to provide information and I assume has to create a lot of it from scratch. Because he's simultaneously working on TWoW, I assume there can be a bottleneck there. More notably, there's a lot of different artists to simultaneously manage, commission and handle (as previously said, some of them being late - very late - has delayed the book in the past). It's not just waiting on one guy with his word processor.

[Lord Elrosir]

Can one thing, other than a TV show, associated with this book series come out on time? Fucking hell.

Not going to lie, I'm going to laugh when D&D mosey on past GRRM and shit in his sandbox. Dude repeatedly keeps overextending himself.

[SLKRR]

There's no excuse really, and both the editor and GRRM have been up front when asked: the hardcover of ADwD is still selling very well for Bantam and the retailers (it's still on the NYT bestseller list, 71 weeks in total), and they won't release a mass market paperback until that's no longer the case.

I don't understand. Where is it that the DwD paperback is not available? I have a copy in my hand right now, so this is a confusing statement.

[Bushido]

^ US mass market paperback edition.

[SLKRR]

^ US mass market paperback edition.

Thanks. Just answered my own question... the small print on the back says "For international sale only." I don't think I've ever seen an imported book available here (Brazil) before it's been released stateside, so I just assumed it was available there, too.

[Free Northman]

Suprising person that the Lannisters in the novel (including Tywin?) descend from? Hmmm.

Must refer to Tytos's wife, or Joanna's mother or father, perhaps. Why would it be surprising? Probably because it's from a House you wouldn't expect.

At first I thought perhaps a daughter from House Stark, but that would have given them a tenuous claim to Winterfell even without Sansa Stark's marriage to Tyrion, and I think that would have been mentioned if the case.

There has certainly been no talk of any Targaryen links to the Lannister family, so I discount that theory too.

I also don't buy the "common woman from the East" suggestion, as I don't consider that surprising enough to warrant a big "Oooh".

So what's left that would be surprising in the context of the novels? Bloodraven, perhaps? Not sure how that would work. All that's left is someone from Dunk and Egg, or maybe a Blackfyre. And since I haven't read the Dunk and Egg novels, I can't really comment.

[Arataniello]

I am wondering if it will turn out to be a desecendant of one of three Princesses in the Maidenvault. One of them had several offspring after the death of Baelor the Blessed.

[Maia]

I am wondering if it will turn out to be a desecendant of one of three Princesses in the Maidenvault. One of them had several offspring after the death of Baelor the Blessed.

Hm... but wouldn't Lannisters having a Targaryen ancestor have been a common knowledge, then? I actually thought that it made sense for them to intermarry with Plumms, for instance, and it might have explained some things about Tyrion's Targaryen-like traits and Cersei's new-found love of wildfire without involving Aerys, but would it really be that surprising?

And wasn't Aerys's stated objection to Cersei match her lack of Targaryen blood?

IMHO, it has to be something more explosive and something they'd want to keep hidden. It would make sense for them to have a Targ ancestor, but one they'd prefer not to aknowledge, even vis-a-vis Aerys's predilections. A bastard and a non-Blackfyre one at that.

Like... maybe it was Jeyne Waters, a bastard child of Elaena with her cousin the admiral? Or a child of one of those Butterwell maidens "honored" by Aegon the Unworthy? Etc. And this ancestor would have had to come through Joanna's line for it to be successfully concealed, because Tywin's would be well known.

Ditto connection with any other Great House - if it was a conventional match, it would have been known and mentioned in the books.

A completely out of the left field possibility, given the unusual color of Tywin's eyes, would be a Naathi ancestor for him. OTOH, I don't see how it would provide anything of interest to the story.

[Arataniello]

Like... maybe it was Jeyne Waters, a bastard child of Elaena with her cousin the admiral? Or a child of one of those Butterwell maidens "honored" by Aegon the Unworthy? Etc. And this ancestor would have had to come through Joanna's line for it to be successfully concealed, because Tywin's would be well known.

Those were the ancestors to which I was referring.

Another possibility would be, like in the War of the Roses, that the Starks (House of York) and Lannisters (House of Lancaster) have a common ancestor.

[Maia]

Another possibility would be, like in the War of the Roses, that the Starks (House of York) and Lannisters (House of Lancaster) have a common ancestor.

But unless it was another bastard, wouldn't it have been mentioned at some point? I mean Stark/Karstark kinship was, and this ought to be something much more recent. Lancaster and York having common ancestors was also common knowledge and the issue that fuelled their conflict...

BTW, I found this topic to be interesting enough to dedicate a new thread to it.

[lucaszc]

Suprising person that the Lannisters in the novel (including Tywin?) descend from? Hmmm.

Must refer to Tytos's wife, or Joanna's mother or father, perhaps. Why would it be surprising? Probably because it's from a House you wouldn't expect.

At first I thought perhaps a daughter from House Stark, but that would have given them a tenuous claim to Winterfell even without Sansa Stark's marriage to Tyrion, and I think that would have been mentioned if the case.

There has certainly been no talk of any Targaryen links to the Lannister family, so I discount that theory too.

I also don't buy the "common woman from the East" suggestion, as I don't consider that surprising enough to warrant a big "Oooh".

So what's left that would be surprising in the context of the novels? Bloodraven, perhaps? Not sure how that would work. All that's left is someone from Dunk and Egg, or maybe a Blackfyre. And since I haven't read the Dunk and Egg novels, I can't really comment.

Maybe Tywin's mother or Joanna's mother was a Reyne or Tarbeck...

[Free Northman]

Maybe Tywin's mother or Joanna's mother was a Reyne or Tarbeck...

Yeah, I thought of that, but so what? All it will make us think is "Ooh, so Tywin was so badass that he eradicated the line of his close kin." Big deal. We already know he is ruthless.

I don't think that's the big surprise.

[lokisnow]

Those were the ancestors to which I was referring.

Another possibility would be, like in the War of the Roses, that the Starks (House of York) and Lannisters (House of Lancaster) have a common ancestor.

Bran the Builder and Lann the Clever are brothers? ;)

[Maia]

Maybe Tywin's mother or Joanna's mother was a Reyne or Tarbeck...

Then surely people would have muttered that Tywin was a kinslayer and that Tyrion's birth was punishment for that, rather than "his pride".

Actually, now it occurs to me that the ancestor could have been a Baratheon. The genealogy book was written a century previous to the series proper, after all, things happened between then and AGOT. At first I thought that surely that would have been brought up, but then I remembered that the only time anything resembling a discussion re: paternity of Cersei's kids happened, was between Cersei and Ned. Stannis never explained his grounds for considering them bastards, IIRC. And it would be so ironic and so in character if Cersei had a perfectly good defense on her fingertips the whole time, but was too arrogant/dim/ignorant of family history to use it!

Maybe that was why Jon Arryn never went to Robert? Because he knew that there was an inescapable reason for doubt and the only real proof could only be obtained by catching the twins in flagranti.

[lojzelote]

Then surely people would have muttered that Tywin was a kinslayer and that Tyrion's birth was punishment for that, rather than "his pride".

Not if it was Joanna's mother - it would a distanced enough relation for Tywin to avoid that.

Actually, now it occurs to me that the ancestor could have been a Baratheon. The genealogy book was written a century previous to the series proper, after all, things happened between then and AGOT. At first I thought that surely that would have been brought up, but then I remembered that the only time anything resembling a discussion re: paternity of Cersei's kids happened, was between Cersei and Ned. Stannis never explained his grounds for considering them bastards, IIRC. And it would be so ironic and so in character if Cersei had a perfectly good defense on her fingertips the whole time, but was too arrogant/dim/ignorant of family history to use it!

Maybe that was why Jon Arryn never went to Robert? Because he knew that there was an inescapable reason for doubt and the only real proof could only be obtained by catching the twins in flagranti.

I agree it would be wonderfully ironic, but it would make Jon Arryn's proof not a proof at all. All his arguments would come down to "the Queen is unhappy in her marriage and spends a lot time in company of her twin brother, the knight of Kingsguard." How convincing. Woudn't he himself think that it's just his wild imagination playing tricks on him? Also, wouldn't have Tywin used it in Cersei's defence? Cersei may lack the knowledge about her ancestors, but I doubt it would be Tywin's case.

So, I hope not. The "proof" was hard to swallow already when it was 100% that the offspring from Lannister/Baratheon couplings always inherits the Baratheon look, but now it would be just a bad joke. I mean ... they always do, except that there is a precedent they don't. LOL

ETA: I liked your earlier Jeyne Waters idea though. Does the timeline work?

[The hairy bear]

Actually, now it occurs to me that the ancestor could have been a Baratheon.

The text says: "Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon’s tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired."

That means that we have to go back 120 years to find a Lannister with Baratheon blood. Too far away.

ETA: I liked your earlier Jeyne Waters idea though. Does the timeline work?

Eleana Targaryen was born at year 150, and lived for many years. Even if she had Jeyne late in her life, let's say at year 190, it's still to early to make her the mother of Tywin or Joanna (Tywin was born in 243).

[History of Westeros]

The Starks and Lannisters may have allied against Dagon Greyjoy ~211 AL. If so, perhaps there was a marriage pact to seal the deal.

[LordBloodraven]

For fuck's sake, I was so expecting this book for this fall. Why put new content? Just write a WOIAF2 and that's it. Very, very disappointed

[kephv]

According to this report, GRRM says it'll be out next spring despite recent reports of a fall 2014 release.