[Book Spoilers] Pre-airing Discussion

[DragonAge93]

But why would Ramsay just, on a whim, go down to the Iron Islands and meet up with Theon? What were the chances he'd even see him? I can't wait for them to introduce Ramsay so that way this silly speculation can stop.

[King Tommen]

But why would Ramsay just, on a whim, go down to the Iron Islands and meet up with Theon? What were the chances he'd even see him? I can't wait for them to introduce Ramsay so that way this silly speculation can stop.

As I said, it's not on a whim, presumably Roose would have sent him once he found out in Robb's camp that Theon was going there to meet his father. He would presumably be under orders to wait for the right time to sidle up to Theon in order to nudge him in the right direction (ie to take Winterfell) which is exactly what happened. He sauntered out just as Theon's crew and Yara had left and introduced himself as "1st mate" which Theon took at face value, having never met any of his crew.

[iheartseverus]

Does anyone have spoiling information about tomorrow’s episode? Last week, there was a poster who was able to describe the episode almost entirely before it aired… I would like to be spoiled again, if possible, but don’t feel like reading the whole thread… I’m lazy, I know! ;)

Ah, yes, that was addsend. I just PM'd him, asking that he come join us here and fill us in!!

[Ciglon]

With regards to this Ramsay=Reek theory, wouldn't Ser Rodrik Cassel have recognized that Dagmer looks an awful lot like Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort? Even if Roose hadn't brought Ramsay to Winterfell in the past for feasts or whatever since he's a bastard, I assume he looks like his father, even a little bit...? After all, the only reason he wasn't recognized in Winterfell in the books was because it was full of commoners (with exception of Luwint & co.) and mainly b/c he was dressed as Reek. How did Ser Rodrik not notice something weird going on there last episode? Or Maester Luwin or somebody? I assume these people have met Roose Bolton a few times in the past.

[Jamie Lannister]

With regards to this Ramsay=Reek theory, wouldn't Ser Rodrik Cassel have recognized that Dagmer looks an awful lot like Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort? Even if Roose hadn't brought Ramsay to Winterfell in the past for feasts or whatever since he's a bastard, I assume he looks like his father, even a little bit...? After all, the only reason he wasn't recognized in Winterfell in the books was because it was full of commoners (with exception of Luwint & co.) and mainly b/c he was dressed as Reek. How did Ser Rodrik not notice something weird going on there last episode? Or Maester Luwin or somebody? I assume these people have met Roose Bolton a few times in the past.

Roose is described as looking nothing like Ramsay, aside from the eyes. Since "the eyes" aren't really a viable plot point courtesy of uncomfortable contacts, then it probably wouldn't be too hard to overlook the non-family resemblance.

Not that I buy or even like the Dagmer = Ramsay theory, but still. I'm more inclined to think an extra playing Ramsay's "Red Helm" persona will kill Dagmer in episode ten, and show us who the real bad boss of the north is.

[King Tommen]

I think Rodrik had a few other things on his mind at the time...

And in the context of the show, we have no idea who or who doesn't know Ramsay Snow. Again, Dagmer might not specifically be Ramsay but I think it's pretty clear that he's going to be the one doing the betraying so he's at the very least, in league with the Boltons. Since there is no one else in episode 10 to provide any kind of explanation to Theon as to how exactly he is about to be screwed (since Ramsay hasn't been cast this season), then someone has to lay it out for him. Dagmer's the logical choice and if that's the case, it's far more dramatic that Dagmer ends up being the Bastard rather than some shadowy figure who the audience has no knowledge of at this point.

I was on board with believing they were just holding off on introducing Ramsay until season 3 but Roose announcing a couple episodes ago that he was sending Ramsay to Winterfell would signal that you're going to see the guy. Since a new actor hasn't been cast for the role, it stands to reason he's already been introduced and is impersonating someone else (you know, like Reek did in the novels).

[House Snow]

Also Rodrik, nor anyone else in Winterfell, failed to recognize the original Ramsey in the book despite him seemingly being the most notorious bastard to ever walk Westeros. And really, if in the book, Ramsey can trick the entirety of Winterfell, Theon, and Theon's iron islanders into thinking he wasn't Ramsey why are people all the sudden hesitant to say he can't trick all of these people in the show. I agree that the show needs to do a good job explaining such a deviation if it happens, but I think people are acting like the book was somehow less convoluted when it was convoluted as heck.

Look at it another way if they shot it the way it was in the books but held back Ramseys backstory until the taking of Winterfell, everyone would be saying what the hell was he doing in Winterfell in the first place if he is the most wanted man in Westeros,-i.e. its really not that different than what hypothetically would have to happen in the show.

[NewJeffCT]

if the seasons filmed back-to-back then that could be a possibility, but it doesn't make sense for HBO to introduce characters at the end of a season (they can just start Artsan Whitebeard fresh in season 3)

Well, Arstan really isn't an introduction - he'd be a returning character from Season 1. They could have him say he's a squire to Belwas and was sent by Magister Illyrio.

[NewJeffCT]

Also Rodrik, nor anyone else in Winterfellfor that matter, didn't recognize the original Ramsey in the book despite him seemingly the more notorious bastard to ever walk Westeros. And really, if in the book, Ramsey can trick the entirety of Winterfell, Theon, and Theon's ironislanders why are people all the sudden hesitant to say he can't trick them in the show. I agree that the show needs to do a good job explaining such a deviation if it happens, but I think people are acting like the book was somehow less convoluted when it was convoluted as heck.

Ramsay as Reek tricked people because he covered himself in excrement and nobody wanted to get close enough to investigate if he was not Reek. The guy stunk to high heaven and was standing over the dead body of a man dressed in Ramsay Bolton's clothing, so nobody thought to check if Ramsay was tricking them. I mean, how many people would cover themselves in human waste like that?

[jlk7e]

I don't think there's any evidence at all to suggest that Dagmer is working for the Boltons. All this stuff is being made up out of thin air.

In fact, there's no evidence that Roose is intending to betray Robb at this point (in the books, in fact, it seems fairly clear that he only decides to betray Robb after the Blackwater.) Ramsay's sack of Winterfell was a freelance operation that Roose knew nothing about.

[moonsblood]

The sigil has been torn off. Seems an awfully big coincidence that every Iron islanders has a kraken on the middle of their armor and Dagmers just happens to be the one torn off. Must have been some wardrobe malfunction. Are we sure they didn't cast Justin Timberlake.

I just rewatched a man without honor, and all the iron men's sigils are tore up like that, I think its just supposed to be weathered looking. Theon doesn't even have a sigil.

[House Snow]

That not true, I even linked a photo of the two standing right by each other.

[iheartseverus]

That not true, I even linked a photo of the two standing right by each other.

Re-link the pic? THX.

[J_Crews]

The age bothers me more than any of the other hard-to-understand ties in the whole Dagmer=Ramsey thing. The dude who plays Dagmer is 42 and looks it; unless we're supposed to believe Roose is in his late 50s and had him young or in his mid-50s and had him *REAL* young, it just doesn't ring true. They look close to the same age to me.

Maybe Dagmer is Roose's brother/Ramsey's uncle! Ha ha! :laugh: :shocked: :idea: :blink:

That was sarcasm, btw. ;)

[CrypticWeirwood]

With regards to this Ramsay=Reek theory, wouldn't Ser Rodrik Cassel have recognized that Dagmer looks an awful lot like Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort?

No. Ramsey looks nothing at all like Roose, save for his eyes alone. From Dance:

Ramsay was clad in black and pink—black boots, black belt and scabbard, black leather jerkin over a pink velvet doublet slashed with dark red satin. In his right ear gleamed a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood. Yet for all the splendor of his garb, he remained an ugly man, big-boned and slope-shouldered, with a fleshiness to him that suggested that in later life he would run to fat. His skin was pink and blotchy, his nose broad, his mouth small, his hair long and dark and dry. His lips were wide and meaty, but the thing men noticed first about him were his eyes. He had his lord father’s eyes—small, close-set, queerly pale. Ghost grey, some men called the shade, but in truth his eyes were all but colorless, like two chips of dirty ice.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Why in the world would Dagmer have his sigil — presumably kraken — ripped from his tunic like that?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Roose Bolton is presumably older than the actor playing him (Michael McElhatton is only 37 years old) because it is often remarked in the book that the Lord of the Dreadfort was older than he looked, that his skin had not yet begun to wrinkle. Some attributed this to his draining himself of bad blood, although less savoury possibilities also come to mind.

In contrast, his bastard Ramsey does not look good at all.

[_Oberyn_]

Why in the world would Dagmer have his sigil — presumably kraken — ripped from his tunic like that?

Maybe it just fell off and they could not be arsed to postone the filming for that day :P

[CrypticWeirwood]

On the matter of people’s ages, notice how “Dagmer” is an anagram for “Mr Aged”. Go figger!

[iheartseverus]

This is all such fun, because none of us has a clue what D and D have in mind here. (addsend, where are you to give us our weekly spoilers! I summon you, man! Appear! Speak!) But according to Snape's Law (which I just made up, this very second), those who are the loudest in being enraged/angry/contemptuous at this possibility of Dagmer=Ramsey will, if its in fact true, express with equal or surpassing loudness of rage/anger/contempt their opinion of why it was a stupid idea in the first place. Snape's Law. It is known.

ETA: typo