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[Book Spoilers] EP 210 Discussion

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Dany is impervious to dragon fire?

The show has built up Dany to be impervious to fire, period: the scalding hot bath in 1.1, picking up the red-hot dragon eggs, pointing out that molten gold killing Viserys means that he was not the true heir of the Targaryen, and of course Khal Drogo's pyre.

And there's some element of this in the books too: in Book Five she handily survives Drogon's fiery visit to the stadium.

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I'm really not happy with this episode. It just confirms that some of the storylines are indeed botched. Some if it may theoretically get fixed in S3 but I doubt it.

Major points:

-A whole freaking army marches by Sam and ignores him? Wha?

-Dany's entire storyline was so useless. We can't take anything out of the prophecies because we can't be sure if D&D didn't just botch something up, but besides that nothing really happens. There were also really a lot of plot holes in the entire storyline

-So Robb marries Talisa because he wants to(not because he feels compelled to do by his honor), he does it with a clear mind (Instead of being stricken by grief), his mother knows about it yet does nothing besides trying to talk him out of it (Way to make Catelyn more weak imo...). I feared this would happen, it's just another way to finish off a bad storyline in the worst possible way really. Oh yeah and he swears by the seven. They changed his entire character really...

I don't see the problem with the Sam situation. Ya it's new but I doesn't change anything. Everything this is supposed to happen can still happen.

Dany's storyline was useless and boring the book too. Unless you happen to be referring to the prophesies, which I am ok with them changing. Prophesies. except in Macbeth situations (Cercei) , serve no purpose plotwise, and destroy suspense.

Lastly, I don't see any change in Robb's character. If you think Robb slept with Jeyne only because he we grief stricken and not becuase he was teenage boy away from his mother and alone with an attractive girl then you have some thick rose colored glasses on.

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I don't think they can get Xaro out of the Vault can they? There is only one key, and I assume that they aren't going to leave it around.

Presumably they could break down the wall. I don't think we were told it's wrought with spells of indestructability.

We don't know if Martin intends to make major use of Xaro after his brief appearance in Book 5, nor if Pyat Pree is really going to show up again for revenge, but the show needs to be careful not to foreclose such options. I mean, imagine if Cersei had poisoned Tomen last week.

I don't mind departures from the books; they're necessary for several reasons. But I don't want this series turning into another True Blood where the later seasons bear only a passing acquaintance with the books.

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@JonF311: It is really easy to miss, but there is a strong implication from the combination of "The Iron Reaver" in AFFC and a statement from Xaro Xoan in one of ADWD's Daenerys chapters that all but assures that Euron killed Pyat Pree.

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I can't help but assume that Robb being married in the light of the Seven is a major plot point in the tv show. I'm not sure why but it had to be done for a reason, right? That's really my only nitpick. I liked this episode.

Are people forgetting that

1) Cat, Robb's mother, follows the Seven? Sansa also prays to the Seven and no one bitched about that. So would Jeyne Westerling....

2) There was a Sept AND a godswood in Winterfell?

3) HOW DID YOU PEOPLE MISS THE GODSWOOD RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM?!

They're also in the West, and the ceremony in front of JUST a godswood without speaking would've been kind of abstract, non-book readers might not have figured out it was a wedding.

It's not that big a plot hole, GRRM never specifies how the wedding went down.

People will complain about everything and anything, I swear.

Also, Robb was under a bunch of stress...he has lost his father, the kingslayer is escaped, his brothers are prisoners of his former best friend, and his sisters are both hostages in KL, AND he lost Winterfell. So, in the midst of all this BS, he wants love in his life instead of gambling on a random stranger for marriage. This may be a more modern concept, but it happened in the Middle Ages too.

I don't see how that makes him so stupid? Is him being identical to Ned that big a deal? I think doing it for love makes his story more tragic, ultimately. Just IMHO. Shrug.

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I don't see the problem with the Sam situation. Ya it's new but I doesn't change anything. Everything this is supposed to happen can still happen.

Dany's storyline was useless and boring the book too. Unless you happen to be referring to the prophesies, which I am ok with them changing. Prophesies. except in Macbeth situations (Cercei) , serve no purpose plotwise, and destroy suspense.

Lastly, I don't see any change in Robb's character. If you think Robb slept with Jeyne only because he we grief stricken and not becuase he was teenage boy away from his mother and alone with an attractive girl then you have some thick rose colored glasses on.

dany was useless in the book? lmfao then you might aswell say stanis and all the others are useless aswell dany is the only 1 who brings something intresting to this series

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Overall, I liked this episode.

Loved the fakeness of the Joffrey/Margaery declaration of love. Happy to see Sansa smile, even for a second

Was moved my Maester Luwin scenes with Theon and the boys -- actually teared up. Was also moved by Tyrion/Shae and I really hate Shae, so they did a great job of that. Also, by Varys thanking Tyrion for saving the day. Lump to my throat.

Laughed out loud at the look on Jaime's face when Brienne kicked the asses of the Stark men. I swear, in a few seconds that actor can steal the show!

Theon's speech was wonderful and inspiring.

Loved jaqen's changing face. i thought for sure they would leave that out.

didn't care for;

It appeared that jon killer Quorin out of spite, not duty. They should have explained that part better for non-readers. However, Ygritte's reaction was great -- awestruck.

I hate the way the married Robb off. I can live with the change to the Seven. I think they're cutting down on religions in the show and are eliminating the Old Gods. They also seemed to have gotten rid of the multi-faced god that faceless men worship (IIRC). Also okay with showing the romance and sex. However, in the book, he falls for Jeyne but marries her because he puts her honor before his own, which is a very Ned Stark quality. In the show, he's just selfish. One of my favorite passages in ASOS:

"He is a boy of sixteen," said Lord tywin, "at that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor." Tyrion: "He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where're the honor in that?" Ser Kevan answered. "He chose the girl's honor over his own." It always reminded me of when Jon was returned to the Night's watch by his friends. Old Bear; "Honor set you on the kingsroad...and honor brought you back." "My friends brought me back,"Jon said. Old Bear:"Did I say it was your honor?" I feel like they lost the nuances about honor in the way they chose to handle Robb's story. They could have made Jeyne/Talisa a nurse and well worth loving and still kept the part about honor. (okay, I'm done with that soapbox.)

HOTU -- agreed, very weak. Disappointing season for Dany, altogether. However, i did like her locking them up in the safe--very Targaryen. Liked seeing Drogo and baby (ADORABLE baby, by the way--I just wanted to cuddle him!) but they spent too much time on it. Perhaps they're saving prophecies for next season.

Wish Arya had to kill more people to escape, but I agree that little girls killing people reads better than it shows on a screen. it would be too unrealistic.

Did Stannis strangle Melisandre in the book? It felt strange for her to be so helpless.

Others -- not menacing enough. Reminded me of Pirates of the Caribbean, for some reason. I would have preferred that they keep the Others half-hidden to retain the mystery.

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A lot of people here seem to be confusing wights and the White Walkers. The guy on the dead horse was a White Walker, the rest were wights - reanimated dead people. They were dark and in black in the Prologue to Season 1 because they were mostly reanimated dead members of the Night Watch, whereas in the last scene of Season 2, they are in white because they are mainly reanimated Wildlings.

I thought they were white during the day and dark at night was bc they had camoflague, as they have Predator-like armor in the book (kinda) too.

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The show has built up Dany to be impervious to fire, period: the scalding hot bath in 1.1, picking up the red-hot dragon eggs, pointing out that molten gold killing Viserys means that he was not the true heir of the Targaryen, and of course Khal Drogo's pyre.

And there's some element of this in the books too: in Book Five she handily survives Drogon's fiery visit to the stadium.

I'm pretty sure after her ride on ole Puff the Magic Drogon she mentions her hands being blistered and red, I think she's clearly much better at dealing with fire but I was sure after she lay in the pyre with Khal Drogo, the witch and her eggs, that these unique abilities kind of disappeared. I'm sure GRRM mentions it somewhere, or I'm going mad.

I was a little disappointed with this episode, especially after how excellent I thought Blackwater was (let's clone GRRM and have one write the books and one write every episode of the series, plz) but I totally understand that it's an adaptation with restraints and you really couldn't pick something much harder to adapt. However, I think Quorin Halfhand could've been written a little better with respect to his plan to get Jon into the Wilding gang. It really wouldn't have taken much more than another whisper to make it clear, but we are all people sittings at our computers and these guys are adapting an absolutely epic fantasy series for screen on, while seeming big, a peanuts budget for what they're attempting to achieve.

I think no matter what has happened this season, after Blackwater was so so so incredibly well put together, I will forgive them for everything else. I just vote for longer POV scenes with the main characters and less jumping around. I wouldn't mind if I didn't see a character for an episode if I knew they had a lot of time in the next one. Blackwater is a great example of an episode that relied on one setting only and succeeded marvellously. Just give your guys a bit more time to talk, D&D!

On a further note, DRUMS!

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Dany's trip to the HOTU.. people are so busy whining about what wasn't there they completely miss what was there. Was that ash or snow falling on the iron throne? Or should I say was that (Jon) Snow on the iron throne? Just to make it more obvious for you. Dany also had to turn away from the iron throne.

I also agree that although they didn't show the same things as in the books...there was still quite a lot of symbolism to pick up.

I also thought why was it snowing in the Throne Room... and why did it look nearly destroyed. I also noticed that when Dany approached the Iron Throne, she seemed to look at something particular - her eyes were fixed to something at one point. If you are looking at a throne in general your eyes would wonder about.... but her eyes stared at one point... so I though that maybe there was someone there. And did someone realise what was she about to touch? Was it just part of a throne?

All her visions included snow..accept the Khal Drogo part.

And that I found interesting that she went to Khal Drogo beyond the wall. It means as if... there is something safe for her beyond the wall. When usually everyone knows that nobody goes beyond the wall, thats where the world ends basically. But she found something dearest to her beyond the wall.

Also It seems to me that few things are not being mentioned by people here. Things that I found really coool. And they were:

JAQEN H'GHAR!!!!! How well was he portrayed by Tom Wlaschiha!!!! He really made the character seem mysterious and dangerous. His firm facial expression which was almost always smiling but you can't really tell if that's a smile or not. And his tone of voice which knows more than it speaks...calm and solid. Really good job there - was a joy to watch! I will be missing Jaqen - I hope we will see him more.

A scene with master Luwin was very touching... and what a good job by RICKON!!!!

THE DRAGONS!!!! I loved the way they looked. Really good animation there. I liked how they stared at Dany as if waiting/wanting something from her. The voice the dragons make...is really good!!! You can really hear it in a voice that its not your regular cute little pet. There are so many textures to the sound they make.

So yes... so many little details that make it really interesting to watch and what I feel that nobody here really mentions. Everyone is just too focused what was not shown the way it was in the books. All in all I think they did a good job covering all the necessary bits.

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Wights aren't zombies in behavior or appearance. They have the apparent ability to play dead and carry out rudimentary order, as shown by the attack on Lord Commander Mormont. Classical zombies eat brains and not much else. Wights don't appear to decay. The two zombies that attacked Mormont didn't have corpse stink, and Coldhands isn't decaying.

Wights are still (un) dead, and where in this episode did they eat brains, exactly? They're definitely slow and clumsy in the books.

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Presumably they could break down the wall. I don't think we were told it's wrought with spells of indestructability.

We don't know if Martin intends to make major use of Xaro after his brief appearance in Book 5, nor if Pyat Pree is really going to show up again for revenge, but the show needs to be careful not to foreclose such options. I mean, imagine if Cersei had poisoned Tomen last week.

I don't mind departures from the books; they're necessary for several reasons. But I don't want this series turning into another True Blood where the later seasons bear only a passing acquaintance with the books.

I was wondering if Xaro needs to show up because he killed the rest of the 13. But more to the point, I agree with you on the departures, since you can't show internal monologue on TV you need some of them and for time constraints and so forth.

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this is my first post. i've read all the books, and while i enjoy them i take the heretical view that season 2 of the show has been a better tv show than the second book is literature. yes, depth and backstory is sacrificed but it's far more engaging for people who would never read these kinds of books anyway. the books are great with the endless plot, but let's face it's not always/often great writing per se.

i quite enjoyed the episode. all the way till the end, that is. that's a white walker/other? i'm hoping against hope that doesn't turn out to be the case. i was hoping for something not (very) reliant on cgi--more an uncanny almost-human creature rather than the nazgul/skeletor/orc/lotr ghost army hybrid that showed up at the end. let's pray it turns out to have been a wight captain, and not a real other.

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this is my first post. i've read all the books, and while i enjoy them i take the heretical view that season 2 of the show has been a better tv show than the second book is literature. yes, depth and backstory is sacrificed but it's far more engaging for people who would never read these kinds of books anyway. the books are great with the endless plot, but let's face it's not always/often great writing per se.

i quite enjoyed the episode. all the way till the end, that is. that's a white walker/other? i'm hoping against hope that doesn't turn out to be the case. i was hoping for something not (very) reliant on cgi--more an uncanny almost-human creature rather than the nazgul/skeletor/orc/lotr ghost army hybrid that showed up at the end. let's pray it turns out to have been a wight captain, and not a real other.

The thing on the dead horse was definitely supposed to be an Other.

Edited by Procopius

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Those saying the White Walkers look different, please post links to pics which show this. I am looking at images from the one last season with the head, the one that adopted Craster Jr (yes I am stealing that) and the one on the horse. They look pretty much the same to me, considering they were all in the dark previously.

I am still annoyed they just dropped the fact that LF knew where Arya was.

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this is my first post. i've read all the books, and while i enjoy them i take the heretical view that season 2 of the show has been a better tv show than the second book is literature. yes, depth and backstory is sacrificed but it's far more engaging for people who would never read these kinds of books anyway. the books are great with the endless plot, but let's face it's not always/often great writing per se.

i quite enjoyed the episode. all the way till the end, that is. that's a white walker/other? i'm hoping against hope that doesn't turn out to be the case. i was hoping for something not (very) reliant on cgi--more an uncanny almost-human creature rather than the nazgul/skeletor/orc/lotr ghost army hybrid that showed up at the end. let's pray it turns out to have been a wight captain, and not a real other.

Wight captain? wtf, man.

It IS an Other. White Walker. Whatever, you name it. But no, it is not a wight.

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Wight captain? wtf, man.

It IS an Other. White Walker. Whatever, you name it. But no, it is not a wight.

So the wight on the horse is a white walker. Got it. (kidding!)

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