[TV/Book Spoilers] What´s the deal with the Freys?

[Mulled Wino]

But my point was that Robb wasn´t being reckless, he was making a decision that would cause the North/Riverlands to loose the war. So why didn´t Catelyn tell him this? Or anyone else for that matter, surely most of his lords must have realised what losing the Freys would mean for the war effort?

No one asked him how he was going to get back across the twins to retake the North. Small detail. No biggie

[Mulled Wino]

I don't really understand how show Robb's decision is any different or worse than book Robb's decision. Yeah, book Robb was upset about his brothers dying, but getting married is a pretty extreme decision. Book Robb marries Jeyne because he felt bad about taking Jeynes maidenhead and, i think, he thought or did live her. Show Robb marries Talisa because he falls in love with her after getting to know her. Robb still wasn't in a great mental state after finding out he was betrayed by someone he considered a brother and his home being conquered.

So one gets married for love, the other gets married because he popped a girls cherry. Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling gained him nothing, they had like 100 soldiers. Both make stupid decisions, both cost them the Freys, both lead to the eventual loss of the War/Red Wedding. Why do people loathe show Robb so much compared to book Robb?

Totally agree. Its baffling. talisa/jeyne is unjustifiable either way.

[AquariumDrinker]

So one gets married for love, the other gets married because he popped a girls cherry. Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling gained him nothing, they had like 100 soldiers. Both make stupid decisions, both cost them the Freys, both lead to the eventual loss of the War/Red Wedding. Why do people loathe show Robb so much compared to book Robb?

The only thing I can figure is that seeing it happen on screen makes the stupidity of it stand out. Robb was dumb in the book and the series, The only difference I see is that in the series, he has less advisers to ignore.

[David Selig]

I don't like either Robb much, and I think marrying Jeyne was really stupid, but at least it was somewhat plausible. Jeyne was a minor noble, but still a noble from a well respected old noble family. So marrying her wasn't completely outrageous. Such things happened in history, albeit quite rarely. But has there ever been a medieval king who married a foreigner who claims she's not a noble and is a camp follower in the most literal sense? I can't think of anyone.

[jarl the climber]

Actually Talisha claimed to be highborn Volantene from House Maegyr, in the books this House has a member in the triarchy that rules Volantis. Doran Martell, The Prince of Dorne is married to a highborn from Norvos and Aerys sent Robert Barratheons Father to Essos to see if he could find a good bride for Rhaegar so the idea of him marrying someone like that is not without precedence in Westeros.

[Howdyphillip]

Unless you want to consider Robb a sniveling idiot, which some of you may well do, then both the book and show decisions were made with the knowledge that he would lose the Freys and have a lot of trouble winning the war.

As for why we didn't see a scene where Catelyn holds his hand like he was a blubbering fool who couldn't do basic math and explains to him about the war effort, well is that really needed? Can't we just assume that people around him told him it was a bad idea? Especially since we see his mother tell him it is a bad idea...

There are a lot of things wrong with the Robb story line. This little nitpick isn't one of them.

[SerMixalot]

why are you saying the tv-wedding was weeks / months in the making. I didn't get that impression at all. And I don't think his talking to someone necessarily led to a wedding. And further, the wedding was done at night with only two others there; this was obviously a rather secretive wedding.

I don't get all the hate for Robb here. I thought TV Robb was pretty interesting and he is young and fell in love. Jeez.

He is still a classic tragic hero. Nothing has changed. He makes a mistake for love and pays the ultimate price.

no absolutely not the show Robb is NOT a tragic hero. He is not a morally blameless man for pursuing and falling in love with Talisa. That was, given the circumstances of the show, a selfish act, a willful act of betrayal for selfish reasons. That point is screamed at the viewer in his meeting with Cat in Epi 8.

COmpare that to book robb who is physically depleted and grief stricken (his love for others ie his brothers-not a selfish pursuit leads him to bed Jeyne).

Book Robb is still a morally blameless man for his one tragic mistake with Jeyne, his subsequent acts with her (marrying her) were CLEARLY an attempt at doing an honorable thing, even against his own better judgement. He placed himself in a catch 22 of honor (something that GRRM repeats throughout the novels)

Show Robb acts selfishly, he PURSUES Talissa, that act of pursuit IS selfish and thus making him no longer blameless.

Show Robb is NOT a tragic hero.

[Marjie Eilie Myatt]

I don't think taking her virginity is an issue in this new storyline. She didn't act like a virgin; for example, she gets on top of him when they get down on the floor and is not shy about the lovemaking at this point. (Did I miss a scene? I'm watching on YouTube.)

[Magjee]

Robb's story is a little different when you only see it from the POV characters.

I think it was interesteing to see how it played out on screens, like Renly's scene's, but as a reader, the scenes become annoying and have lots to offer for us nitpickers.

[SerMixalot]

I don't think taking her virginity is an issue in this new storyline. She didn't act like a virgin; for example, she gets on top of him when they get down on the floor and is not shy about the lovemaking at this point. (Did I miss a scene? I'm watching on YouTube.)

somewhere someone caught a short laugh by Talisa at the end of the scene implying Robb finished quickly meaning perhaps he was a virgin

[_shadowcat_]

somewhere someone caught a short laugh by Talisa at the end of the scene implying Robb finished quickly meaning perhaps he was a virgin

Sort of. In the scene, right after they tumble to the ground, Robb pulls away and sighs and Talisa laughs a little, then they carry on. Some people have interpreted this as Robb losing his shit already, but it's kind of a stretch. They've barely managed to get their clothes off after all the lacings involved, and have been making out for like three minutes, all while upright. If Robb's already done by the time they hit the rug, when she's still only lying on top of him, it's a sad, sad state of affairs.

[Harrad]

Northerners arent learn-ed in the ways south of the border. Thats why Catelyn took so long to warm to Ned. Not to mention Jon Snow who couldn't figure out what to do with the saucy Ygritte.

[KC_Accidental]

Correction: Show Catelyn....

I don't see how book Catelyn is any better. Releasing Jaime without the knowledge of her sons deaths was pretty baffling by all means but book Catelyn is still a bumbling idiot of a woman. She frustrates me so damn much.

She pretty much starts the war in the Riverlands and forces Ned to take responsibility for her kidnapping Tyrion. She does this all without any consideration for the consequences. Not once in Catelyn's POV's do I remember her lamenting her actions and how they've led to her families lands being destroyed and her fathers castle being under siege. All because of a reckless kidnapping. I think Bran was right, Cat should have been by her sons side instead of leaving him and baby Rickon to galavante around Westeros in a bid for revenge.

Then there's the actual issue of releasing Jaime. There was no gaurantee whatsoever that releasing Jaime would mean the return of Sansa and Arya. She has him swear by the sword but hey this is a member of the Kinsguard who put his sword in Aerys back. More importantly Jaime is only a member of the Kingsguard and sometimes when he feels like it he's a Lannister general of sorts. He does not have the authority to release Sansa. Did Cat really think he would overrule Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey?! Then there's the issue that her actions completely undermine her son in front of his bannermen. She jeopardises his position and arguably costs him the war. Would the RW have taken place if Jaime was still in captivity? Who knows. It certainly cost Robb the Karstarks.

There's also the frustration of her being prepared to kill Brienne because she hasn't succeeded in getting her daughters back yet. I excuse her more on this one because she's now un-Cat and full of rage but she does still make for frustrated reading. None of her actions should be excusable "as a mother" the same way Cersei's aren't. In fact I would go so far as to say Cersei's acts to protect her children and more understandable because her childrens lives are in direct danger. If she hadn't killed Robert her children would be dead.

[The Monkey]

no absolutely not the show Robb is NOT a tragic hero. He is not a morally blameless man for pursuing and falling in love with Talisa. That was, given the circumstances of the show, a selfish act, a willful act of betrayal for selfish reasons. That point is screamed at the viewer in his meeting with Cat in Epi 8.

COmpare that to book robb who is physically depleted and grief stricken (his love for others ie his brothers-not a selfish pursuit leads him to bed Jeyne).

Book Robb is still a morally blameless man for his one tragic mistake with Jeyne, his subsequent acts with her (marrying her) were CLEARLY an attempt at doing an honorable thing, even against his own better judgement. He placed himself in a catch 22 of honor (something that GRRM repeats throughout the novels)

Show Robb acts selfishly, he PURSUES Talissa, that act of pursuit IS selfish and thus making him no longer blameless.

Show Robb is NOT a tragic hero.

In the books he held the honour of one noble girl in higher regard than the outcome of the entire war and the fates of thousands of his own men. Is that really much more admirable than what he did in the show?

[Greywolf2375]

In the books he held the honour of one noble girl in higher regard than the outcome of the entire war and the fates of thousands of his own men. Is that really much more admirable than what he did in the show?

It's not that it is more admirable, it's more understandable & sympathetic. Book Robb marries Jeyne after being wounded, learning his brothers were dead and sleeping with her - he marries her for her honor.

Show Robb marries Talissa after - given the timeframes we see - a more prolongued courtship with full knowledge that what he is doing is going to lose him the Freys even after he is warned by his mother. There is nothing that makes doing it this way sympathetic to him.

[Greywolf2375]

In the books he held the honour of one noble girl in higher regard than the outcome of the entire war and the fates of thousands of his own men. Is that really much more admirable than what he did in the show?

It's not that it is more admirable, it's more understandable & sympathetic. Book Robb marries Jeyne after being wounded, learning his brothers were dead and sleeping with her - he marries her for her honor.

Show Robb marries Talissa after - given the timeframes we see - a more prolongued courtship with full knowledge that what he is doing is going to lose him the Freys even after he is warned by his mother. There is nothing that makes doing it this way sympathetic to him.

[Greywolf2375]

In the books he held the honour of one noble girl in higher regard than the outcome of the entire war and the fates of thousands of his own men. Is that really much more admirable than what he did in the show?

It's not that it is more admirable, it's more understandable & sympathetic. Book Robb marries Jeyne after being wounded, learning his brothers were dead and sleeping with her - he marries her for her honor.

Show Robb marries Talissa after - given the timeframes we see - a more prolongued courtship with full knowledge that what he is doing is going to lose him the Freys even after he is warned by his mother. There is nothing that makes doing it this way sympathetic to him.

[Greywolf2375]

In the books he held the honour of one noble girl in higher regard than the outcome of the entire war and the fates of thousands of his own men. Is that really much more admirable than what he did in the show?

It's not that it is more admirable, it's more understandable & sympathetic. Book Robb marries Jeyne after being wounded, learning his brothers were dead and sleeping with her - he marries her for her honor.

Show Robb marries Talissa after - given the timeframes we see - a more prolongued courtship with full knowledge that what he is doing is going to lose him the Freys even after he is warned by his mother. There is nothing that makes doing it this way sympathetic to him.

[Mediumjon Umber]

It's not that it is more admirable, it's more understandable & sympathetic. Book Robb marries Jeyne after being wounded, learning his brothers were dead and sleeping with her - he marries her for her honor.

Show Robb marries Talissa after - given the timeframes we see - a more prolongued courtship with full knowledge that what he is doing is going to lose him the Freys even after he is warned by his mother. There is nothing that makes doing it this way sympathetic to him.

Herp. Call me crazy, but I think a lovestruck Robb is more sympathetic to the casual viewer than a honorbound Robb. The latter would come across as extremely cheesy in the show, especially because of the cheese doodle guy playing him, who for some reason made everything cheesy to some degree in this season. I bet most people understand what love can to do your mind, while not many understand the unrealistic and monoric honor system that drove medieval knights and lords to such acts of stupidity like leading 130 men to their deaths against 7000 Ayyubids, because falling back in good order is for cravens, or in this case, marrying the daughter of some unimportant bannerman of your sworn enemy, because they happened to have had a one night stand once. I think love makes more sense than honor. Derp.

[Tadco26]

I think they did a big disservice by continueing to emphasize that he was marrying a Frey simply as a toll charge for crossing a bridge. As if the only thing gained and lost was the ability to cross that bridge.

I also think the story could have worked (though not as well in my opinion as the book version), if they had Rob marry for love, but not have him tell Cat about it til after the fact, and likewise with her telling him about Jamie. It's just a much different feeling to have a rash, more spur of the moment wedding without any evidence of outside counsel by a 16 year old, than it is to have counsel and completely ignore it out of spite or stubborness by a twenty something year old.

They could have even had Robb respond to Cat in the show with how he took Talisa's maidenhood and was honor bound to marry her now, rather than make him look like a spoiled kid who was going to do whatever he wanted regardless of how it would effect anyone else because his mom made a mistake too. There is a stark difference in the reason book Robb made the decision to marry, which in many ways defines his character and his father's.

As it stands, show Robb makes me a Frey sympathizer.