Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Francisco Araujo da Costa

Reading from The World of Ice and Fire

Recommended Posts

Robert did participate in tourneys and won some melees, didn't he? Also, he did fight in several battles normally and demonstrated his prowess. While Aegon seems to have only fought on Balerion.

He might have, but he never won any of them. Cersei almost got caught by Margaery for accidentally saying that Tommen's 'father' had won many tourneys, thinking of Jaime. Margaery finds this odd and then asks which ones Robert had won, since she didn't know of them. Of course, the subject was then changed somehow.

As for Aegon, I can't really say. Even if he somehow ONLY fought on Balerion, I'm sure his legend as a warrior would encompass the might of his dragon, especially considering that it was probably told through word of the mouth, of which topics are often embellished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about inheritance? Argilac looks like he was thinking short-term, not long-term, and would doubtless cross that bridge when it came to it. But the real point was alliance, not who'd inherit dragons down the road.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way:

Was Visenya injured during the Field of Fire while riding on dragonback, or did she fight on foot/on horseback?

My guess is an arrow did get her by accident, but one can never be sure ;-).

As to Aegon's prowess as a warrior:

Did he fight anyone ever on the field in single combat? Did he personally slay any enemy combats in people? But even if not: The whole thing about Aegon being the prototypical warrior might be historical fiction. As it seems, official history never actually found out why Aegon invaded Westeros, and thus ended up depicting him as a bad-ass warrior when he in fact might have been weirdo incest-born melancholic boy who just happened to inherit the biggest dragon in the world...

As to polygamy:

Maegor the Cruel had many wives. Despite the fact that he (apparently) was sterile and fathered no children at all, back then the line of succession would (likely) have been determined by the dragon-bonding thing, not so much by who was the eldest son by the (favorite) wife.

It might very well be that Aenys I ended up becoming king not because he was the eldest son, and because Rhaenys was his mother, but because he ended up mastering Balerion after his father's death. And this might also have been the deciding factor why Jaehaerys and not Alysanne ascended the Iron Throne (her dragon was Silverwing, not one of the first generation Targaryen dragons).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting that the Storm King feared Harren the Black, when the Storm King himself once ruled from the Dornish Marches to the Neck. How the power of various kingdoms waxes and wanes over the millenia is quite interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
At Storm's End, Argilac's daughter Argella would declared herself Storm Queen and defiantly barred the gates. However, her men were not so eager to die and presented her to Orys chained and naked. Orys treated her gently. He removed the chains and gave her his cloak as well as food and wine. He would take her House words and later marry her.

I suppose the gently and food and wine is supposed to make it seem more consensual. I wouldn't want to marry my father's killer in her place.

T4P for all the Targ info and what GRRM said about Arya's chapters.

Aegon sounds like a boss. He's moving up to one of my favorite Targs.

I feel bad for Visenya though. I would prefer it if she was the one with other lovers since her husband clearly preferred her sister.

Still I like how they both had a role in governance and not just in the conquest. Visenya seems like one of the best queens to me still.

I like the Yellow Toad's answer to Rhaenys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Err, yes, that's right. Heh. In fact, GRRM has it spelled both ways in the file. Will zip back a correction to him and Anne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The most interesting thing is what degree of Old Magic the Starks still had access to which inspired Brandon Snow to take three branches from the weirwood and fasion it into arrows.

Where did he learn that weirwood arrows might damage dragons? Clearly there was some basis for this belief.

And also, why did Torhenn choose against it, when that had clearly been part of the plan from the start? Torhenn's story is the most compelling and mysterios to me out of this entire saga.

After making an issue out of the Starks' uniquely retaining their independence for thousands of years while all the other First Men kingdoms fell around them, Torhenn's surrender is strangely meek and anti-climactic in comparison to the North's proud history.

There must be a lot more to this story that we don't know yet. My personal belief is that Torhenn had a prophecy about Jon one day being born from a unification between the Stark and Targaryen lines, and that his surrender - while his name would go down in disgrace for all eternity - would only lead to a relatively short (300 year) subjugation for the Starks, before they achieved kingship again while saving the world at the same time through their sacrifice.

I really want to hear more about this aspect of the story.

Maybe Tohrren wasn't a believe of magic, or maybe the weirwoods killing the dragons wasn't a sure thing- if the plan backfired (or simply if Brandon missed one or more of his shots), then they were facing extinction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really curious about the unusual nature of Aegon's polygamous marriage, as well. Was it unusual for Valryians or unusual universally? Was polygamy usual in certain areas of Westeros and Aegon used polygamy as a way to bridge some sort of cultural gap? It always seemed strange that he didn't keep himself and his sisters available to be married for alliance building but it would make sense if he were doing it as a way of saying "Though I practice incest which is an abomination to your gods, I also practice something you do as well."

The really interesting point is that Argilac offered his daughter and Sharra Arryn herself as wives for Aegon, despite he already having two wives...were they so impressed by his dragons that they were willing to accept a poligamous marriage? Or maybe there existed divorce at the time, and they expected him to divorce his wives-sisters?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See the previous page. I already answered that one. In brief: they were willing to accept polygamous marriages for the sake of an alliance with the last dragonlords in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See the previous page. I already answered that one. In brief: they were willing to accept polygamous marriages for the sake of an alliance with the last dragonlords in the world.

Thank you, I have already read those now.

People become a lot more flexible when there are gigantic dragons around, I guess...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe Tohrren wasn't a believe of magic, or maybe the weirwoods killing the dragons wasn't a sure thing- if the plan backfired (or simply if Brandon missed one or more of his shots), then they were facing extinction.

Maybe the weirwood arrows could do some damage, but my guess is that Brandon would most likely be walking into a Quentyn-esque BBQ ;)

I imagine that Torrhen was wise enough to realize this was most likely a suicide mission that would only make matters worse...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting the Rhaenys seemed to be held in reserve during the Last Storm. If it was raining and a thunderstorm, could it be that she was effectively grounded and couldn't fly overheard and do the normal dragon thing, and that may have inspired Argilac to attack at that moment (since he'd heard about Harrenhal)? I'm guessing in that case that she simply let Meraxes tear into the Durrandon troops on the ground instead. Or did Orys just prefer to have a 'fair' field engagement without using dragons? Interesting stuff there.

I also wonder when Visenya won the allegiance of Crackclaw Point. It looks like she could have done it during the conquest of Duskendale and Maidenpool or later, on her way to or back from the Vale.

And I wonder why the Arryns didn't join their host at the Bloody Gate to the Stark host as it marched past? The timing could have been off or Sharra (Shara?) could have done a Lysa and refused to leave the Vale, despite it offering more chances of victory.

Also, interesting that GRRM has changed 'AL' (After the Landing) to 'AC' (After the Conquest). Especially since this means that all the dates will be off by two years (since Aegon's landing was two years before his coronation in Oldtown), which could get confusing.

It's weird that during the battle of the Last Storm Visenya was riding Meraxes, and not Vhagar. Could it be a confusion?

Two other reports from the same reading both say that Rhaenys went south with Orys. Visenya and Vhagar went with the Targaryen fleet northwards instead.

It looks like these three attacks - Aegon against Harrenhal, Visenya/Daemon Velaryon against Gulltown and Orys/Rhaenys against Storm's End - took place simultaneously during a multi-pronged campaign to seize as much territory as quickly as possible. Clearly, Aegon would do well at Total War :)

It's actually Meria Martell, unless GRRM has tweaked the name since we saw what he called the final draft. Treb, how sure are you on Merriam? Anyone else attend the reading want to weigh in on that?

Two other reports both seem to be saying 'Mariya'. However, I'm assuming they were writing down what was said, so it could be 'Meria'.

And also, why did Torhenn choose against it, when that had clearly been part of the plan from the start? Torhenn's story is the most compelling and mysterios to me out of this entire saga.

We were told this, weren't we? Torrhan planned to fight, but one look at Aegon's army and his dragons saw the fight drain out of him and he agreed to bend the knee.

There must be a lot more to this story that we don't know yet. My personal belief is that Torhenn had a prophecy about Jon one day being born from a unification between the Stark and Targaryen lines, and that his surrender - while his name would go down in disgrace for all eternity - would only lead to a relatively short (300 year) subjugation for the Starks, before they achieved kingship again while saving the world at the same time through their sacrifice.

Hopefully not. Some things in ASoIaF can just happen without there being some kind of prophecy behind it. I must admit, given I once really enjoyed the lack of prophecies in the earlier SoIaF books, the profusion of them in later volumes has been somewhat disappointing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking about the unreliable narrators, this chronicle of the conquest was written by maester? How could the writer know things like 'Aegon spent 10 nights with Rhaenys for every one with Visenya'? Did he have a voyeur link or something?

The question I want to ask is if there were maesters in dragonstone before the conquest?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The maesters compile information from all sorts of sources. Letters, chronicles, histories, oral accounts, rumors, etc.

There were maesters since Aegon dispatched ravens to the various lords of Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The maesters compile information from all sorts of sources. Letters, chronicles, histories, oral accounts, rumors, etc.

There were maesters since Aegon dispatched ravens to the various lords of Westeros.

does this mean dragonstone, driftmark and claw Island were a westrosi -valyrian freehold mix to the eyes of the world?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will it be specified from which house that Queen Shara is? And did Argilac had sons/brothers/cousins? Houses Wensington and Bolliing seems to be related to the Durrendons/Baratheons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, it sounds like the main reason Torhenn yielded was that Aegon gave him very lenient terms.

"Hand me your crown, pay a little bit of tribute, and you can be Lord of the North. Not much difference from being King of the North. I won't bother you much, and you won't have to fight a battle you would almost certainly lose."

Methinks Torhenn made the right call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose the gently and food and wine is supposed to make it seem more consensual. I wouldn't want to marry my father's killer in her place.

I think she could have grown fond of him, or to love him. It's not easy given the circumstances, I know, but still possible.

1. Orys killed her father not by murder but in battle. She may have reasoned that out later on.

2. When she was delivered to Orys chained and naked, some other guys would have taunted her, but Orys acted honorably and put his cloak over her to cover her nakedness, offered kind words and saw that she was taken care of.

3. Finally, Orys was the father of her children. How could she hate the man when he gave her the children she loved so much?

I also gotta give some credit to Argilac. He at least knew that there was a chance that he was going to die in the conflict,and chose the manner of his death, to die in battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think she could have grown fond of him, or to love him. It's not easy given the circumstances, I know, but still possible.

1. Orys killed her father not, by murder but in battle. She may have reasoned that out later on.

2. When she was delivered to Orys chained and naked, some other guys would have taunted her, Orys acted honorably and put his cloak over her to cover her nakedness, offered kind words and saw that she was taken care of.

3. Finally, Orys was the father of her children. How could she hate the man when he gave her the children she loved so much?

1-2. It wasn't murder but he still killed her father then took his lands. I have hard time imagining that courtesy would brush that under the rug.

3. Women do it all the time IRL but usually that's when they take their husband to divorce court and at least try to get his money and custody of their children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×