I Need Support for This Whole Bakker Thing

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Well I suppose there are only two sorts of people who can go on crusades, those who have everything to gain (nobility) and those who have nothing to lose (lower class). To that extent, I'm not sure who else would have gone on the crusade. Though I am a bit surprised that there really wasn't a great deal of clergy on the trip, because I would have loved to have seen a clerical viewpoint of Kellhus Anasurimbor.

[Hark]

BS (how unfortunate) has a point. Even the empress is kinda slutty.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

BS (how unfortunate) has a point. Even the empress is kinda slutty.

But there is a reason for that slutty nature.

[Scuba Steve]

I just started reading The Darkness That Comes Before, and holy god does it move slow. But, I've made it to the part where Kellhus arrives at the gathering for the holy war, so, stuff might start happening. Woot. Even just from what I've read, TDTCB is easily one of my favorite books right now.

[beniowa]

But there is a reason for that slutty nature.

And that reason is?

[Asa]

And that reason is?

She gets lonely sometimes.

[beniowa]

She gets lonely sometimes.

You're so naughty Asa. Come to think of it, that would make me a slut too. SH*T!

[Arakasi]

I do find it rather amusing that after my critiques of book 2 for making Kelhus too godlike that people kept saying they kinda agreed but Bakker would humble Kelhus or cause him setbacks in book 3. Now that it didn't happen in book 3 they said it would happen in the next book. I also find it funny that some people who take offense at Erikson and reasons people give for defending Erikson use the same rationale for defending Bakker. Things like "the series isn't intended to be that type of story", "you're just not getting what the author is trying to put across" and so on.

[AverageGuy]

I do find it rather amusing that after my critiques of book 2 for making Kelhus too godlike that people kept saying they kinda agreed but Bakker would humble Kelhus or cause him setbacks in book 3. Now that it didn't happen in book 3 they said it would happen in the next book. I also find it funny that some people who take offense at Erikson and reasons people give for defending Erikson use the same rationale for defending Bakker. Things like "the series isn't intended to be that type of story", "you're just not getting what the author is trying to put across" and so on.

Kellhus is not going to get humbled. Maybe at the very end of the series, but I see him becoming a saint or a god instead.

[Caligula_K]

If by Kellhus getting humbled, you mean him gaining humility... Well, that ain't going to happen. He has had bad things happen to him though; before the end of Warrior Prophet in particular is what I'm thinking.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Finally tracked down book 3, still to read it , far too drunk to begin tonight due to London meet up. Will try tomorroe

[Durckad]

I do find it rather amusing that after my critiques of book 2 for making Kelhus too godlike that people kept saying they kinda agreed but Bakker would humble Kelhus or cause him setbacks in book 3. Now that it didn't happen in book 3 they said it would happen in the next book. I also find it funny that some people who take offense at Erikson and reasons people give for defending Erikson use the same rationale for defending Bakker. Things like "the series isn't intended to be that type of story", "you're just not getting what the author is trying to put across" and so on.

I said the same thing and it's own of the few things I dislike about the book. I hate Kelhus. I was even rooting for Conphas and Cnaiur and the Synthese at times! He is a complete and utter bastard.

Doesn't stop the book from being good though.

[Decius]

I do find it rather amusing that after my critiques of book 2 for making Kelhus too godlike that people kept saying they kinda agreed but Bakker would humble Kelhus or cause him setbacks in book 3. Now that it didn't happen in book 3 they said it would happen in the next book. I also find it funny that some people who take offense at Erikson and reasons people give for defending Erikson use the same rationale for defending Bakker. Things like "the series isn't intended to be that type of story", "you're just not getting what the author is trying to put across" and so on.

So when is Karsa going to get humbled?

[Calibandar]

I do find it rather amusing that after my critiques of book 2 for making Kelhus too godlike that people kept saying they kinda agreed but Bakker would humble Kelhus or cause him setbacks in book 3. Now that it didn't happen in book 3 they said it would happen in the next book. I also find it funny that some people who take offense at Erikson and reasons people give for defending Erikson use the same rationale for defending Bakker. Things like "the series isn't intended to be that type of story", "you're just not getting what the author is trying to put across" and so on.

Yeah, it's a real laugh riot.

If you want to call Bakker fans hypocrites, just come out and say it.

I still don't see any issues with Kellhus' power btw. It is clear that there will be sequels and everyone knows he will have bigger things on his hands, this has been foreshadowed endlessly by the author by showing us the powers from ancient history, powers which are clearly returning, in fact some of them already have.

I don't even think he was too powerful within the context of PoN. He's an exceptional prodigy in a world of average people.

[Larry.]

Or to put it more bluntly, Kellhus is like a 'regular kid' competing in the Special Olympics. Of course he's going to look great in that context. But now that the all-stars are coming out to run, he'll have to be tested against those who are just as aware of the world as he is and possibly more.

[Arakasi]

Dackad: I agree that I hate Kelhus too and I root against him. Of course this is probably intentional on Bakker's part but still makes it a hard book to enjoy.

Decius: Karsa? Numerous times that I can think. The start of HoC when he got captured, Mappo knocking him out after Icarium destroyed his weapon, Heboric laying him flat in DG. Sure he is a very fearsome warrior, but he is not uncontested in the world like Kelhus is in his. Even the time Kelhus got it in the Warrior Prophet was very quickly reversed with him getting his power back. And yeah from what I've read in book 3 its gotten even worse. Karsa is very Conan like, but Kelhus is pretty much Conan, Freud and Merlin wrapped into one, in a world where people with power to oppose him are much more rare than Erikson.

Cali: I think their points are valid actually. Bakker has clearly chosen to write a book about a messiah figure. This leads to a world where Kelhus is pretty much unmatched, since he basically is a god. If you like that sort of story that is good. If not that's fine too. But I would appreciate the same treatment as an Erikson fan. As for saying he unbalances things, I clearly disagree with you. As an exceptional prodigy in a world of ordinary people as you say, he way unbalances the story. You say that he will get real challenges, but seriously its 3 books now and it hasn't materialized. Maybe it will come in book 4, but really I doubt it. I feel it shaping up more as these old powers having strong powers but constantly being outwitted and outthought by the clearly more "intelligent and clever" Kelhus.

Dylan: Yeah maybe, but still its been for 2 books people on this board have been promising that in the "next book" Kelhus would get challenged. I've been fooled twice now, I don't think I'm sticking around to be fooled thrice.

[Decius]

Decius: Karsa? Numerous times that I can think. The start of HoC when he got captured, Mappo knocking him out after Icarium destroyed his weapon, Heboric laying him flat in DG. Sure he is a very fearsome warrior, but he is not uncontested in the world like Kelhus is in his.

Thus follow spoilers for MBotF up to TBH and PoN up to TTT:

SPOILER: TTT and TBH

You can't really count when he comes down from his mountaintop, since he isn't full-fledged Karsa yet (only level 3 ). Only after his escape it really starts for him. And considering TBH he doesn't count any of these things as "having lost", which is quite clear when we see Icarium in full-wrath-mode and Karsa only says "I would have killed him if we weren't interrupted". I wouldn't call that humbled.

Kellhus at least doesn't completely destroy full armies alone, doesn't kill a god, or kills 300 Claws in mere seconds. While Kellhus is far above all "normal" humans (which, since he represents the Übermensch idea, is expected) he isn't as far removed from them as Icarium, Apsalar, Karsa, Trull Sengar, the Seguleh, Onrack, Anomander Rake, Traveller, Quick Ben etc are. Sure, they balance themselves out again (after six books), but they are much more godlike than Kelhus compared to Joe Malaz (or even some gods - I think good Cotillion would have had his troubles with Icarium). If you can find a Joe Malaz. Sometimes it seems that every person which gets mentioned by name in MBotF has some hidden power which allows him or her to obliterate at least army units up to half company size.

We see many such meetings (or convergences ) in TMBotF because of Erikson's "power draws power" idea, but if you let Icarium, Karsa or Quick Ben out into an area where they don't bump into another "Übercreature" every 2 chapters they would be as unbalanced as Kellhus is now and more. Kellhus hasn't run into these other superpersons yet, which seems very deliberate. The Holy War happens in the south, all the old enemies are in the north. He nearly got himself killed fighting the Sranc for example, which can be considered at par with Karsa getting captured at the beginning of his journey.

As said I am a big fan of both authors, but I also see the flaws of both and I can't understand these "X does this shitty, while Y does this great!". Yes this might be, but X does things different than Y and has different themes in his work. I rather read about Kellhus dominating the Holy War completely than Kalam's gore trip through Malaz city (the one part where I really considered to put down the otherwise really good TBH) for example, while on the other hand I rather read about Cotillion's explorations than about Cnaiür denying to himself that he is a full fleged homosexual and the receiver not giver in this.

[Ashara]

I hate Kelhus as well, and to think of it, so far none of the characters appeared to be sympathetic. I'm starting the Warrior Prophet currently, and will probably end up rooting for Consult.... But I did enjoy the first book, if some of it felt Mary-Sueish.

I just saying it's a little strange that Bakker's main female characters seem to be, at various levels, whores.

Yes, that was one thing that irked me, that and the fact that no woman ever in the first book at least won any encounter at all. They were always losers, while males had their share of victories.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I hate Kelhus as well, and to think of it, so far none of the characters appeared to be sympathetic. I'm starting the Warrior Prophet currently, and will probably end up rooting for Consult....

Also part of the Kellhus Defamation League. But I don't think you'll feel like rooting for the Consult when you reach the end of Warrior-Prophet. I just re-read that last scene of the book (yeah, THAT one -- the one with "the question") and I kept thinking "Fuckin' hell. That is so fucked up."

[Ixodes]

Also part of the Kellhus Defamation League. But I don't think you'll feel like rooting for the Consult when you reach the end of Warrior-Prophet. I just re-read that last scene of the book (yeah, THAT one -- the one with "the question") and I kept thinking "Fuckin' hell. That is so fucked up."

Agreed! That is the worst part of finishing the series--you want more. Whether it's to see Kellhus fall, see more of the consult and srancs, or whatever, you just want more.