The Iceman of the North Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 How do you now that "99 %" of Nucky's force were at the ambush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 How do you now that "99 %" of Nucky's force were at the ambush?All of Omar's and Capone's men. And a gatling gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Who? Everyone was at the shoot-out. They devoted 99% of their manpower to killing Masseria's men who were no threat since they were leaving town anyways and only 1% of their manpower to catching the violent sociopath who blew up Nucky's girl and who, guess what, escaped with 2 of his men because their plan sucked! Rosetti got away!How do you know that all of Chalky's men were with him? How do you know how much time passed between the scene where Masseria's guys were shot up and Nucky and Eli went into the mansion? How do you know that Chalky and co. didn't regroup with Nucky after getting rid of Masseria's guys before heading into the mansion? Where is all this certainty coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Drop Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 How do you know that all of Chalky's men were with him? How do you know how much time passed between the scene where Masseria's guys were shot up and Nucky and Eli went into the mansion? How do you know that Chalky and co. didn't regroup with Nucky after getting rid of Masseria's guys before heading into the mansion? Where is all this certainty coming from?Nothing we saw or heard on the episode contradicts/disproves the following statement:Eli and Nucky failed to bring adequate backup to the Artemis Club where, as far as they knew, 10 armed and dangerous men who were expecting their imminent attack were holed up with a woman and a little boy as their hostages. Consequently, Gyp Rosetti (the man who blew up Nucky's girlfriend) escaped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Nothing we saw or heard on the episode contradicts/disproves the following statement:Eli and Nucky failed to bring adequate backup to the Artemis Club where, as far as they knew, 10 armed and dangerous men who were expecting their imminent attack were holed up with a woman and a little boy as their hostages. Consequently, Gyp Rosetti (the man who blew up Nucky's girlfriend) escaped.Oh, come on, what you're suggesting is that Nucky actually thought he could take 10 men single-handely, or at least with Eli only, because he thinks of himself the best shooter in the world. You're nitpicking. TW simply assumed his audience was smart enough to not need to be spoonfed every obvious detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Gyp escaped because Richard attacked with the intention to get Tommy not kill Rosetti. If Richard hadn't attacked he probably would have holed up and tried to do a stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Oh, come on, what you're suggesting is that Nucky actually thought he could take 10 men single-handely, or at least with Eli only, because he thinks of himself the best shooter in the world. You're nitpicking. TW simply assumed his audience was smart enough to not need to be spoonfed every obvious detail.With everything else going on I didn't even notice this until it was mentioned here. It does seem a little silly and I dare say the scene would have had more impact if Nucky had entered with Capone and Chalky (even though it makes sense they'd be busy elsewhere) and a dozen back up - only to find Richard did it all by himself. I did assume there were several cars of Nucky's goons in the parking lot though. Maybe a quick shot showing this would have placated the observant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Only if the observant is being a complete nitpicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Drop Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I'm not being nitpicky, in fact I think it was an important moment for Nucky's character development, showing how arrogance and lust for power clouds his judgment: He could have just let Masseria's men go back to New York, but instead he deployed the bulk of his manpower (we can debate whether it was ALL of his men or just the vast majority, but any way you slice it, Chalky, Capone, the machine gun, and most of the men represent the bulk of the available resources) to killing a bunch of pawns. By doing so he diverted his resources away from the original mission, which was to kill/capture Rosetti, putting himself and his brother at INCREDIBLE risk (if he hadn't been so frightened, Tonino could easily have popped out of the closet and shot one or both of them) and failing to catch their man in the process. If Nucky had been smart, he would have deployed the Chalky/Capone gangs covering all the roads and entrances, then Rosetti wouldn't have been able to escape in the confusion.The fact is Nucky only found Rosetti because of the incredible coincidence that Tonino was hiding in the closet, who also by incredible coincidence had recently had his cousin killed by Rosetti, making him capable of the betrayal. Any other chain of events and Rosetti is a free man. Now, you could argue "Richard ruined the plan by attacking when he did" but that's making the big assumption that Rosetti would just sit there waiting for them to come gunning for him after Masseria pulled his support, instead of simply running away like a coward (which in fact is EXACTLY WHAT HE DID).Again, it's not nitpicking--it's important character development (whether intentional or just bad writing) that Nucky is an arrogant moron who forgets who he's angry at and why (Gyp for blowing up his girlfriend) just as soon as a new target for his wrath comes along (Masseria for trying to take over AC). He's like a child, and I bet we will see more of the same in Season 4.(edit: I just rewatched the scene, and Eli is doing this walk-backwards-with-my-shotgun-so-nobody-pops-out-and-ambushes-us-from-behind thing which is almost comically non-badass after seeing how Richard handled the same situation minutes earlier.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Rosseti was all but destroyed. Taking a swipe at Masseria seems like the right move to make when you look at the larger picture -- it's a message he's not going to forget about messing with Nucky -- while what's really the big picture with Rosseti? He was done for. Whether he escaped or not did not matter very much, as he was no longer a threat, was alienated from Masseria, and basically had no resources. So he was taking off to the west coast, and basically putting it all behind him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Drop Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 The "big picture" of Rosetti is that he took over Tabor Heights, blew up the Atlantic City boardwalk, tried to kill Nucky, and succeeded in killing Billie Kent. No way Nucky considers him harmless and lets him walk away, sorry I can't agree with your theory.The only rational explanation I can come up with is that Nucky injured his brain worse than we thought in that concussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Stuff he mostly did with the backing and support of Masseria. His support was done, his men were all gone except for three guys. He was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 No way Nucky considers him harmless and lets him walk awayJust cause he got away from Gillians doesn't mean Nucky was just giving him a free pass.You think he couldn't of got Gyp whacked on the West Coast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Drop Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Just cause he got away from Gillians doesn't mean Nucky was just giving him a free pass.You think he couldn't of got Gyp whacked on the West Coast?Sure, but how is that a better plan than "kill him at the Artemis club with the combined forces of Nucky, Chalky, and Capone at the exact moment he is vulnerable because Massaria has withdrawn his support"???Nucky knew exactly where Gyp was and how many men he DIDN'T have, and yet allowed him to get in his car and drive away. The man who exploded his girlfriend before his eyes!Also don't forget Nucky recently lost his highly-competent right-hand man because he underestimated the manpower required to assassinate a mobster. Did he learn nothing from that loss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 Sure, but how is that a better plan than "kill him at the Artemis club with the combined forces of Nucky, Chalky, and Capone at the exact moment he is vulnerable because Massaria has withdrawn his support"???Of course it's not a better plan, But he needed Chalky and Capone to clean up Masserias 30 guys.I need to watch the episode again but wasn't Gyp still at Gillians when Richard started shooting up the place, I assume had Richard not shown up as Rambo then Gyp probably would of still been there when Nucky and Eli arrived. Also i assume Nucky and Eli weren't alone lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Drop Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Of course it's not a better plan, But he needed Chalky and Capone to clean up Masserias 30 guys.I need to watch the episode again but wasn't Gyp still at Gillians when Richard started shooting up the place, I assume had Richard not shown up as Rambo then Gyp probably would of still been there when Nucky and Eli arrived. Also i assume Nucky and Eli weren't alone lol.Yes, Richard's first shot comes seconds after Rosetti realizes Masseria's men have left. (I've seen the theory on other forums that Richard was staking out the place, patiently waiting for an opportunity.) So we have no way of knowing how Gyp would have responded to the situation had Richard not arrived. I don't know about you, but MY first reaction would be "Masseria sold us out! Let's get out of here!!!" (Which he would easily have been able to do, since, well, that's exactly what he did!)Anyway let's say for the sake of argument that Nucky has 1,000 men waiting in the car for him outside, armed to the gills... it's still a stupid plan! Wouldn't you see all those fresh bodies and think maybe "hmmm, there appears to be a violent killer on the premises, let's call for backup" instead of "oh look, fresh bodies, surely that means the coast is clear, you guys wait in the car"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Huxley Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I think Nucky and Eli actually went in there underestimating how many men Gyp had left thinking they could clear it out themselves, idiots. But I do think that Gillian contacted Nucky in some way to betray Gyp because she tried to drug him then said something (can't remember what) when Nucky arrived about keeping him upstairs. I presume he thought he could get the second in command to kill Gyp because of all Masseria's men leaving them to die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Drop Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 But I do think that Gillian contacted Nucky in some way to betray Gyp because she tried to drug him then said something (can't remember what) when Nucky arrived about keeping him upstairs.This is a good point. I had assumed Gillian was acting alone out of self-preservation, and that her comments to Nucky were a flashback to her first night with the Commodore, but your theory makes sense too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monkey Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Can someone please clarify, why did Nucky order Capone and Chalky to kill Masseria's men who were going back to New York? Just to send a message? Maybe he hopes to establish himself in NYC, and wants to weaken Masseria position before he moves in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Think it was a "Don't fuck with Nucky" kind of message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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