Is this impression of Serena Williams a form of blackface?

[Sci-2]

Things have suddenly gone Super Saiyan.

His bullshit is over 9000!

[BringerOfSnow]

I think only one person in this thread made the mistake of implying that the term, Jew", applied only to a religion, however an ethnic group is not the same as a race.

In the future I'm just going to let you do my arguing for me.

[Robin Of House Hill]

In the future I'm just going to let you do my arguing for me.

That isn't a good life choice.

[TerraPrime]

No, I'm suggesting it is a not very wide spread stereotype. And that you are getting the stereotype wrong. If you'd said "big booty" and that was it, I'd buy it. Sir Mixalot had a song about it and everything. But the whole curvy body thing? Not a stereotype I've ever seen associated specifically with black people. The racial component is very "big ass" focused in my experience.

I see. So it's not very widespread and you haven't had much exposure to it, but you know that mormont's wrong about it. Got it.

So it seems that you've answered your own question to me, on how do we know what is widespread or not: you are the arbiter. I like questions and queries with definite answers, so I appreciate the elegance of your solution.

If you know a Jew with a hooked nose and you imitate him by putting on a hooked nose, you are just imitating him. If you start going on about how you are a greedy bastard that controls all the media, than you are stepping over the line into racial stereotypes.

You're conflating physical imitations (mimicking hooked nose) with behavioral imitations (being greedy). It's racist to pinch your eyes flat to represent Asians, right? Even if in general, most Asians have more narrow eyes than Caucasians. Or will you say the eye-pinching is not racist because, well, I'm sure my eyes are slantier and narrow than most of you all here.

I mean, the entire problem with stereotypes rests in judging people and assuming things about people based on generalization. All jews are greedy. All blacks are criminals. All asians can't fucking drive. But if you find a jew who actually is greedy, you are not using a stereotype if you are referring to that person as greedy. Because you are basing your statement on what you know about that particular person, not on a stereotype about some group that person is a part of.

Yes you can criticize a greedy person who happens to be Jewish, yes. You can also praise an Asian for being good at math and science, or laud a black person for superb athletic skills.

They exist ... for some.

They exist. Period. A thing does not cease to exist because people are not aware of it.

I mean, I'm going to decide right now that bear avatars are racist against canadians. Now you are a racist.

Or, you know, not, because no one else believes that bear avatars are racist against canadians, so no matter how hard I might believe it, it doesn't count.

And nobody believes it because there are no actual historical records documenting this. Minor difference, that. Sort of like people will believe that horses exist, but not unicorns.

Re: Lorien

That isn't a good life choice.

For him, it might be an improvement actually.

[Sci-2]

And nobody believes it because there are no actual historical records documenting this. Minor difference, that. Sort of like people will believe that horses exist, but not unicorns.

Yeah, this is the thing I don't get. Is it that hard to say, "Gee as a person with X privileges and now looking at Y historical facts, I shouldn't have done Z."?

I mean, I've gotten called out on stuff I said that I didn't think was offensive when I was young. I remember saying how one girl "looks like a lesbian" and my friend called me out on the idea that lesbians look a certain way.

I wasn't trying to be homophobic, I was just being ignorant and assumed lesbians dressed and acted a certain way. I realized my mistake, apologized to my friend if I offended her, and realized I needed to open my mind some more.

[Greywolf2375]

And if you're mocking someone for a racial characteristic, well, that's racist.

Given that this is a fact, then I request the immediate closure of the "Blame Pod" thread and the removal of the meme from this board to reference that as it reinforces the "Irish are backwards/Irish are dumb" stereotype.

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

they are both ugly(not sure if relevent) and its not racist at all, she didnt paint her face black.

[Shryke]

I see. So it's not very widespread and you haven't had much exposure to it, but you know that mormont's wrong about it. Got it.

So it seems that you've answered your own question to me, on how do we know what is widespread or not: you are the arbiter. I like questions and queries with definite answers, so I appreciate the elegance of your solution.

Uh, no TP. I'm not saying I'm the arbiter. I'm saying you aren't. I am calling into serious question the universality of this stereotype you speak of.

You keep wantnig to jump over this little issue, but find it very conveninient when it suits you:

And nobody believes it because there are no actual historical records documenting this. Minor difference, that. Sort of like people will believe that horses exist, but not unicorns.

I mean, you are trying to establish criteria right here. You are saying it has to have precedent. And that it must be known. I am arguing it must have some level of universality. Is a stereotype that no one or almost no one knows of offensive?

You do it again here:

They exist. Period. A thing does not cease to exist because people are not aware of it.

Oh really? How can an idea exist if no one knows it?

You are maknig a claim at universality here. You keep coming back to it, over and over again. I'm questioning your basis for that claim.

You're conflating physical imitations (mimicking hooked nose) with behavioral imitations (being greedy). It's racist to pinch your eyes flat to represent Asians, right? Even if in general, most Asians have more narrow eyes than Caucasians. Or will you say the eye-pinching is not racist because, well, I'm sure my eyes are slantier and narrow than most of you all here.

I'm not seeing why physical and behavioural stereotypes can't be conflated here. What is so different about them?

[MisterOJ]

I know Wikipedia isn't the be all, end all of knowledge or anything, but if these "big tit, big ass" stereotypes for black women were common knowledge, you'd think that you'd find at least a mention here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_African_Americans_in_the_United_States

[denstorebog]

Jesus, what a slugfest. I read the last few pages and I have NO idea who's arguing what against whom here. Can anyone mock something up in Paint for me?

[Robin Of House Hill]

As I understand it, we're talking about Jews with big butts who wear dreadlocks and sing Christmas carols. :laugh: Oh dear, I fear I've offended everyone.

[Thlayli]

Jesus, what a slugfest. I read the last few pages and I have NO idea who's arguing what against whom here. Can anyone mock something up in Paint for me?

I'm shit with Paint, and I'd do a stick figure for you, but the Egyptians drew sub-Saharan Africans with exaggerated boobies and buttses, thus rendering all depictions of human anatomy as racist no matter the context.

I'm submitting "PC Troglodyte" to the OED.

[Sci-2]

Jesus, what a slugfest. I read the last few pages and I have NO idea who's arguing what against whom here. Can anyone mock something up in Paint for me?

I think argument revolves around the question of whether one can be unintentionally offensive to a group of people such as black women, as per the OP, but extending to any group.

Following that, should one be condemned for this mistake, or just be warned about the stereotype and told not to do it again.

The crux of the debate is sorta grey to me as well - seems like you can be told what you said/did was offensive and a callback to prior offensive depictions, at which point you can simply desist or face actual consequences.

Based on preceding statements, some people seem to feel you can be punished for lack of knowledge OR you shouldn't be punished at all.

There's a concern for condemnation of speech, though I don't think anyone is claiming potentially offensive speech should be legally censored so I guess this is about freedom from judgement for saying whatever you say.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I think argument revolves around the question of whether one can be unintentionally offensive to a group of people such as black women, as per the OP, but extending to any group.

Maybe the problem is that people are too easily offended.

[sperry]

As other people have pointed out in this thread, crying racism at every turn just trivializes the actual instances of racism that are still present in society.

Pointing out the actual physical or behavioral characteristics of a specific person is not racism. It is pointing out an objective fact about that specific person.

[Castel]

nvm, too tired to get involved.

[BigFatCoward]

I think argument revolves around the question of whether one can be unintentionally offensive to a group of people such as black women, as per the OP, but extending to any group.

Following that, should one be condemned for this mistake, or just be warned about the stereotype and told not to do it again.

The crux of the debate is sorta grey to me as well - seems like you can be told what you said/did was offensive and a callback to prior offensive depictions, at which point you can simply desist or face actual consequences.

Based on preceding statements, some people seem to feel you can be punished for lack of knowledge OR you shouldn't be punished at all.

There's a concern for condemnation of speech, though I don't think anyone is claiming potentially offensive speech should be legally censored so I guess this is about freedom from judgement for saying whatever you say.

this sums up the thread perfectly, if this can be copy and pasted into the OP it will save a lot of people a lot of time, effort, hand wringing and hair pulling.

[mormont]

Uh, no TP. I'm not saying I'm the arbiter. I'm saying you aren't. I am calling into serious question the universality of this stereotype you speak of.

Yeah, we're back to the 'you're making this up' BS.

Look: numerous links have been provided that discuss this very issue and specifically discuss how universal it is. They show historical and current examples and discuss the validity of the issue and its cultural impact. The facts, they are there. You can 'call them into question' if you like, but you're doing so solely because you (and some others in this thread) were unaware of them. This is the entire basis for you questioning the 'universality' of the stereotype: your ignorance of it. But your knowledge is not the arbiter of how the world actually is. Only of how you have experienced it.

If you're totally unwilling to consider the possibility that this is racist because you were unaware of this stereotype, and totally unwilling to consider the possibility that it's your experience that is lacking rather than asserting that other people are simply wrong when they disagree with it, well, that tells us much about your mindset. But nothing at all about the issue at hand, or the validity of the facts.

[BigFatCoward]

Look: numerous links have been provided that discuss this very issue and specifically discuss how universal it is. .

while i don't necessarily disagree with your argument, i don't think linking things on the internet and stating they are universal is great evidence. there is a whole world of shite out there, i hope we all agree that a lot of it should be ignored.

[MisterOJ]

while i don't necessarily disagree with your argument, i don't think linking things on the internet and stating they are universal is great evidence. there is a whole world of shite out there, i hope we all agree that a lot of it should be ignored.

Exactly. When most of the people in this thread have never heard of it. And it's not common enough to make the wikipedia entry of common African-American stereotypes, I question how universal it is.