Poorer region: North or Dorne?

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

The North is quite isolated and almost has no crops, but Dorne has lots of deserts and I doubt they have lots of crops too.

For the ones who think Oldtown is in Dorne, it's not, it's in the Reach.

I think Dorne is the poorest.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The North is quite isolated and almost has no crops, but Dorne has lots of deserts and I doubt they have lots of crops too.

For the ones who think Oldtown is in Dorne, it's not, it's in the Reach.

I think Dorne is the poorest.

Well, the North has a lot of crops, actually. Even the Gift is good farmland, and the entire North lies South of the Gift, i.e. in warmer climates. Heck, parts of the North lie 1000 miles South of the Gift. That is about as far as Spain is South of Scandinavia.

So much of the North can grow very good crops, during Summer. The fact that they have devestatingly cold Winters does not detract from the fact that almost all of the North is good for agriculture during Summer.

Dorne, in contrast, is 90% covered by desert, which cannot be used for agriculture in either Summer or Winter.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I think the North has a lot of natural resources and cultivatable land. They wouldn't be able to grow some of the crops that the Reach could because of the cold, but with reference to "the harvests" even for the more remote Umber and Karstark lands, I am sure they can grow the kind of crops that modern-day Scandinavia or Russia could.

Since furs are largely a cold-climate export, the North is likely the main supplier of luxury furs such as ermine and sable. They also have timber, and probably minerals as well. White Harbor seems to be a bustling port, and has silver. Wyman Manderly was able to bring along enough luxury wines and food to feed a whole wedding party (OK, so the Freys "helped" supply the food...)

Barbrey Dustin furnished Ramsay and "Arya's" wedding chambers with furs and a bed with a red velvet canopy and curtains. This is in the aftermath of a devastating war. Maybe the Lannisters supplied the money, but I doubt it. IOW the Boltons and Dustins had enough money for luxuries. Ned never told his kids they couldn't afford whatever it was they wanted - nice clothes, Jon having a sword made for Arya, even Theon the ward/hostage wears silk and jewelry. Even the Glovers who live in a rather simple castle have money for wine. The Mormonts seem to be the only lords too poor for small luxuries.

Dorne: the Martells don't seem to lack for luxuries; Oberyn is supporting a paramour and large family in what seems like style. I think, however, that Dorne is less well-off than the North; it is a smaller country and mostly desert. They do have a market in citrus fruit and other subtropical specialties, which are in demand elsewhere in Westeros. They also seem to have more trade connections with Essos than anywhere else, though I think Gulltown - right across the Narrow Sea from Braavos - could give them a run for their money. And Planky Town can't compare to Gulltown or White Harbor in size. (The North has a port city and Dorne only a town - advantage North.)

I surmise that the Stormlands might actually be poorer than either the North or Dorne. They don't seem to have any towns or cities of note even comparable to Planky Town - at least I can't find an actual town in the Stormlands on a map. And the climate and terrain don't seem to be ideal for agriculture - but they do have fishing, and no doubt some trading done out of seaside castles.

And the poorest region has got to be the Iron Islands. They raid because that's the only way they can see to get wealthy, unless Asha and/or Rodrik Harlaw ever get to take over and implement some sensible plans for self-sufficiency.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I feel Dorne deserved a bigger port city , but I suppose there are no rivers... Yeah, I guess they are poorer than the North. But then there's the Iron Islands.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I feel Dorne deserved a bigger port city , but I suppose there are no rivers... Yeah, I guess they are poorer than the North. But then there's the Iron Islands.

The Greenblood, Vaith, Scourge, Brimstone and Torrentine are all major rivers in Dorne. There is also two othr major rivers not named yet, one next to the Yronwood lands and the other by the border.

[Victor227]

I'd say Dorne's poorer, by virtue of having a far smaller population. The greater focus on luxury goods may mean that per capita they're wealthier than Northmen though.

[Barty]

North has more resources(silver, furs, timber etc), higher population, (much)more arable land and one of the top five cities of westeros - its not really a contest.

A better question would be Riverlands or the North. The riverlands have very fertile land and a good position in westeros for trading(though terrible for defence) but have no cities and have nearly always been pillaged during wars. Their land area is also a lot smaller than the North's. Population of both would probably be similar.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So much of the North can grow very good crops, during Summer. The fact that they have devestatingly cold Winters does not detract from the fact that almost all of the North is good for agriculture during Summer.

Can you back this up with text from the books or evidence from GRRM himself?

In the first book it is still summer and Robert and Ned travel through the North and we see no evidence that all the North can grow very good crops. You are clearly exaggerating for effect.

A Wildling or two people who live in the swamps of the Neck are not a good basis to pin your entire thesis that the majority of the North has good farmland.

When Robb meets up with Cat she suggests that he stay behind Moat Cailin to which he replies: "Yes, but our own food and supplies are running low and this is not land we can live off easily"

When Robert travels in Summer to Winterfell he complains about the landscape: " Bogs and forests and fields and scarcely a decent inn North of the Neck. I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?"

These are two descriptions of Southern part of the North in the Summer time. Neither match up to your descriptions of the North. Sometimes I actually wonder what books you have been reading because the way you exaggerate the populations, military and agriculture of the North makes me think that I must be missing a book in the series.

[Zselyke06]

"I surmise that the Stormlands might actually be poorer than either the North or Dorne. They don't seem to have any towns or cities of note even comparable to Planky Town - at least I can't find an actual town in the Stormlands on a map."

I can't see Planky Town on my map neither, but I could be wrong. So maybe they have some town. Anyway, the Stormlands are quite close to King's Landing, if they have anything to sell(not sure), they can sell it there, it's not far.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Can you back this up with text from the books or evidence from GRRM himself?

In the first book it is still summer and Robert and Ned travel through the North and we see no evidence that all the North can grow very good crops. You are clearly exaggerating for effect.

A Wildling or two people who live in the swamps of the Neck are not a good basis to pin your entire thesis that the majority of the North has good farmland.

When Robb meets up with Cat she suggests that he stay behind Moat Cailin to which he replies: "Yes, but our own food and supplies are running low and this is not land we can live off easily"

When Robert travels in Summer to Winterfell he complains about the landscape: " Bogs and forests and fields and scarcely a decent inn North of the Neck. I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?"

These are two descriptions of Southern part of the North in the Summer time. Neither match up to your descriptions of the North. Sometimes I actually wonder what books you have been reading because the way you exaggerate the populations, military and agriculture of the North makes me think that I must be missing a book in the series.

The North is sparsely populated compared to the South. When has that ever been disputed? And it has lots of bogs (the Neck) and forests (all over). Again, not in dispute.

What has that got to do with the fact that the land in the Gift is confirmed to be good for agriculture, and that the rest of the North stretches more than 1000 miles South of that, into significantly warmer climates?

Even if only 20% of the North is fit for cultivation, that still equates to the ENTIRE surface area of Dorne, of which 90% or more is covered in desert. Meaning that the North still has 10 times the agricultural land that Dorne has.

None of what you say contradicts that in any way.

[Free Northman Reborn]

"I surmise that the Stormlands might actually be poorer than either the North or Dorne. They don't seem to have any towns or cities of note even comparable to Planky Town - at least I can't find an actual town in the Stormlands on a map."

I can't see Planky Town on my map neither, but I could be wrong. So maybe they have some town. Anyway, the Stormlands are quite close to King's Landing, if they have anything to sell(not sure), they can sell it there, it's not far.

I think Dorne and the Stormlands are more or less equal in terms of wealth production, right at the bottom of the mainland kingdoms, with the Ironborn a great distance below them even.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I wouldn't take King Bob at his word in GoT. He sounds like a big-city dweller being sniffy about "flyover country." (And it's also a shitty thing to say to your host and good friend! Establishing Character Moment for Bobby B more than a comment on what the North is like, IMO.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyover_country

The Winterfell harvest feast is tremendous luxury. True, Bran thinks that they don't eat like this every day, but the fact that the North can put on such a feast at all speaks to their resources. And in the real hardcore North - the Mountain Clans - Ned got the red carpet rolled out for him. In the remote regions, times get tough in the late winter - hence the older men "going out hunting" never to return - but there is money for luxuries.

The Iron Islands are far and away the poorest region of Westeros. Recall Theon getting the shock of his life at how bleak the living conditions and awful the food are at his father's castle, after living at Winterfell. If the North was really that poor the living conditions wouldn't be that different, nor would Theon have all those silks and satins and gold jewelry that he paid the gold price for. (Ned's money, I don't doubt, as I don't think Balon sent along one copper star for his son's upkeep.)

[LordParas]

Dorne, in contrast, is 90% covered by desert, which cannot be used for agriculture in either Summer or Winter.

I disagree, did you noticed an oasis makes people farm. how could the dornishmen produced wine without agriculture?

as camparison in medival age before the crusade, Europe was poorer than Mid east thought their land 90% covered by desert.

In modern day, you can compare Qatar as Dorn, and North as Russia. Yes Russia have GDP higher, but Qatar have tremendous GDP per capita

in other words, the dorn is poorer as region than north, but their people (dornishmen) much more whealty

[Free Northman Reborn]

I disagree, did you noticed an oasis makes people farm. how could the dornishmen produced wine without agriculture?

as camparison in medival age before the crusade, Europe was poorer than Mid east thought their land 90% covered by desert.

In modern day, you can compare Qatar as Dorn, and North as Russia. Yes Russia have GDP higher, but Qatar have tremendous GDP per capita

in other words, the dorn is poorer as region than north, but their people (dornishmen) much more whealty

Well read what I posted, maybe.

I said 90% of Dorne is covered by desert. The 10% that is used for agriculture, is no doubt clustered around oasis and rivers.

[LucionLannister]

I think a lot of it depends on how much Dorne can get through exotic fruits and wines. Those can both bring in huge numbers.

And I think people underestimate the Plankytown just because its not a grand, traditional city like the Big 5.

But I mean think about. The Southern coast of Dorne is notorious for having no safe landing sights, which makes the Plankytown the last safe anchorage to get supplies before making the journy to the Arbor and Oldtown. Its also one of the last safe anchorages before enteriing the Narrow Sea, which is notorious for bad storms, making the Plankytown a good place to stop and make sure your ship is in tip top shape to hand the worst.

[Petyr's Little Finger]

The Dornish don't have ports so they lose a lot of tax and trade revenue. The North has forests, so there would be some revenue there. Dorne however has lemons, dates, olives etc which are not found anywhere else in Westeros, so they also have a major source of revenue. I think Dorne would be poorer but only just.

[slood]

do people not bother reading a thread before replying? so many replies containing assertions that have been clarified or corrected in posts previous.

[The Holy Goat]

I've always viewed the North as being richer than Dorne. Not by much perhaps, but richer still.

[Lee-Sensei]

I wouldn't take King Bob at his word in GoT. He sounds like a big-city dweller being sniffy about "flyover country." (And it's also a shitty thing to say to your host and good friend! Establishing Character Moment for Bobby B more than a comment on what the North is like, IMO.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyover_country

The Winterfell harvest feast is tremendous luxury. True, Bran thinks that they don't eat like this every day, but the fact that the North can put on such a feast at all speaks to their resources. And in the real hardcore North - the Mountain Clans - Ned got the red carpet rolled out for him. In the remote regions, times get tough in the late winter - hence the older men "going out hunting" never to return - but there is money for luxuries.

The Iron Islands are far and away the poorest region of Westeros. Recall Theon getting the shock of his life at how bleak the living conditions and awful the food are at his father's castle, after living at Winterfell. If the North was really that poor the living conditions wouldn't be that different, nor would Theon have all those silks and satins and gold jewelry that he paid the gold price for. (Ned's money, I don't doubt, as I don't think Balon sent along one copper star for his son's upkeep.)

The Iron Islands are inredibly poor and theres no evidence that Ned payed for everything.

Anyways, the North is wealthier than Dorne.

[Leonardo]

In ADWD Davos claims a cask of ale from white harbor can fetch the same price as a cask of ARBOR GOLD so I think people are vastly overestimating Dorne's potential output, and are foolish in thinking the North doesn't have equivalent luxury goods.

Hell Manderly alone probably comes close to matching the output of Dorne, a fourth of Northern manpower probably comes from Wyman and his vassals.