[Sample] Arianne I

[NotSoSilentSister]

I thought Westeros was the whole point. Being the daughter of Aerys, the sister of Rhaegar and the blood of the dragon. Why continue to masquerade as some transformative ruler who rules over a city who does not want transformation.

The slavers don't want transformation. The former slaves very much do. You might consider them less important than prophecies and bloodlines, but Dany apparently doesn't. I find that quite admireable.

[Ser Wun Wun]

If you sum up what she knows abut Aegon and Dany, it wouldn't be very surprising if she was hoping that Aegon was the real deal.

Oh I know, it's not at all surprising why she views Aegon one way and is suspicious of Dany based on the info she has. That she knows nothing of Viserys is certainly a major reason why she feels OK with blaming Dany for his death. Although he was the Mad King's son, which she never ponders the implications of like she did with Dany being his daughter, which I find a little odd.

I would contrast Arianne's assumption that Dany let Viserys die (maybe even plotted it) with characters who do not seem to assume Dany was at fault like Illyrio and Tyrion (Illyrio knew Viserys and told Tyrion what he was like), JC and Aegon (who too might have gotten the scoop on Viserys from Illyrio) and even Quentyn, who never considers that possibility even though he ponders several scary stories about Dany that he learned on the way to meet her. IIRC, the story he hears is that 'her Khal killed her brother, and then she killed her khal' or something like that (someone feel free to correct me if I am remembering the text wrong, it's been a while since I read a Quent chapter).

And on a personal level, Arianne is probably right that Doran would be delighted to hear that Elia's son is in fact alive.

Of course he would, but I don't think Doran's happiness can entirely explain the reason why Arianne wants Aegon to be real. If it was, she shouldn't feel any shame in openly hoping he is real, but in her conversations with Daemon on the topic she does seem to. When he asks her if she wants him to be real she hesitates with her answer, and then replies with an evasive 'my father would certainly be pleased' line. Daemon then says that that's not what he asked, and he wants to know if she wants him to be real, to which she replies: 'It wouldn't matter to me either way, and I would prefer if Quent came back with Dany'

Daemon's 'or so you say' reply means he doubts the sincerity of that statement, but the question I then have is why? Why is Arianne even being hesitant and evasive with her answers in the first place here? IMO there is an unspoken subtext in that exchange: that Aegon being real and the true heir means Arianne must probably marry him to fulfill the pact, and that Daemon suspects Arianne desires that outcome more than the prospect of seeing her brother return home with his Dragon Queen.

Then Arianne's whole 'I love my brother, I do, I do. No, I really, really do, I swear it' conversation with herself just tells me that Daemon's suspicions are right of the money, b/c the lady doth protest too much. Daemon clearly hit a very raw nerve with that accusation, and Arianne feels bad that he is right, b/c it makes her feel like a bad sister who does not love her brother (which based on how she felt about Quent not too long ago, is probably kind of true).

All in all, Arianne's feelings and views on these matters make total sense. But at the same time, these preconceptions she is forming will likely lead to disaster. Once news of Quentyn’s death hits, she will immediately blame Dany b/c of the skewed way she is already starting to view her (even more so if Drink returns with his version of events). It’s unlikely imo that she will be inclined to investigate into the matter too deeply (I’m assuming once one considers the context of the event, one would conclude that the fault does not lie with Dany; if anyone disagrees with that, that’s fine), and will instead just accept Dany’s culpability at face value b/c it fits so well her preconceived notions of just what type of person Dany is. Which this case, is an ambitious woman willing to go to extreme lengths to secure “her rights”; a view point which, as you kind of said, Arianne is projecting onto Dany b/c of her own past actions, the things she was willing to do to her father and Quent for “her own rights”.

OK, now that this essay is done, it's time for me to go watch some football. I'll get back to any reply likely tomorrow morning. :cheers:

[Tini]

"that Aegon being real and the true heir means Arianne must probably marry him to fulfill the pact" ?

There is no pact that needs fulfillment. The pact that was struck between her father and Viserys' guardian did not mention Daenerys and Quentyn, and it certainly does not apply to Aegon. Viserys' guardian had no authority to make any pacts for Aegon.

If she wants a marriage pact with Aegon, she must marry him but that would require a new pact - and one that is in direct violation to the pact that her father offered Daenerys.

Aegon is a complication in Doran's plans - if he is real. Doran would be happy if some part of his sister lives on, but he would not be really unhappy if it turned out that Aegon is fake. I think Arianne is mirroring his conflict.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

I was kind of disturbed by Arianne in this chapters. Maybe she envies Quentyn for he will (we know he won't) be king and her will only rule Dorne but does she really subconsciously wants her brother to fail? I think Arianne is a very interesting character but I feel sorry for Quentyn never be loved by his sister and cousins and probably Oberyn too (well, that and being burned alive). Doran is the only one who respects and loves him. I think that what drove him to try to steal the dragons, He mentions that he couldn't stand the scorn and disdain he would receive from his sister and cousins after he came back without Daenerys and the dragons.

My God, I really hate the Sand Snakes! They despise Quentyn because he had to be fostered by Lord Yronwood after their father commited stupid mistakes. Doran had to fix everything in a brilliant way but of course he is to blame and so is Quentyn. I don't understand the logic here. Their loyalty to their father is irrational at best and they believe the whole world has to knee to the almighty Oberyn. And Arianne stood at the side of her cousins? Really? I liked Oberyn in ASOS but later I started to think him very annoying with all his entitled badass ways. The Sand Snakes ridiculous devotion to everything he does cemented it.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The slavers don't want transformation. The former slaves very much do. You might consider them less important than prophecies and bloodlines, but Dany apparently doesn't. I find that quite admireable.

With the riches and other spoils of war that have been taken, why did she not acquire vessels and take her horde with her. She could have also taken any slaves that wished to join her. Dorne was offering a safe haven for Dany. As part of the pact, she could have had Doran accept her refugees into his kingdom, much as Dorne accepted the Rhoynar. It would have been a win all round. A new home in exchange for obedience and numbers that Dorne sorely needs. I think her ego took control, in that she wanted to test her ability to rule on this melting pot called Meereen.

[Tini]

Arianne will never change. She is selfish, hot headed, sure of herself, and almost always wrong.....her story will be an interesting one, but I suspect that she will not be alive for long.

She is not actually wrong that often. She was certainly on the right track when she suspected that Doran intended to replace her as his heir. His claim that he never intended Quentyn to replace her is given the lie in the marriage treaty - she was to be Viserys' queen but not Princess of Dorne. She has some good instincts, even if she came to wrong conclusions. Her Myrcella plot was not excactly wrong - misguided, dangerous, and unlikely to succeed, but not wrong. Her only real mistake was trusting Darkstar.

She didn't know where she stood with her father, and that bred insecurity - an insecurity that the heiress to Dorne dared not let show. She worries about her friends, and she wants to be (or become) a daughter her father can be proud of - that is not selfish. Either she never was as you describe her, or she has been undergoing changes.

Now her father has sent her out, as his heir and future ruler of Dorne, to meet Aegon. I wonder what she makes of that. He tried to make her Queen of Westeros once, expecting her to renounce her claims to Dorne. Does this confirmation of her position indicate that he has given up the plans to make her queen?

If she marries Aegon in response to Quentyn's death, would Doran expect her to renounce her claims to her brother Trystane? Trystane is not old enough to take over as ruling Prince of Dorne, and Doran's health problems make it unlikely that he'll live long enough to see his youngest son grow up.

[History of Westeros]

It would appear that Doran has no easy access, at least amongst those he can trust, to someone who could visually ID Jon Connington.

In general, I find it interesting that no one in the party of seven is even close to being old enough to have met him. In fact, it appears that everyone in the party is in their mid-twenties or less.

Seems a little odd to me, but not a huge deal I suppose. You'd think Doran might've at least included someone experienced, but given how much he's entrusted to the Sand Snakes (who are also relatively inexperienced, it seems), it seems he may not have a lot of people around that he can trust. Certainly not older people, it seems.

Feathers is considered a "lad" by Arianne. Arianne herself is 23ish, iirc. Joss Hood and Garibald Shells are noted as "bold, young knights". Daemon Sand is roughly Arianne's age. Elia Sand is 14. Jayne Ladybright's age is unknown, but as a noble attendant on Arianne and because she's described as "pretty", she's likely to be near Arianne's age as well.

[NotSoSilentSister]

With the riches and other spoils of war that have been taken, why did she not acquire vessels and take her horde with her. She could have also taken any slaves that wished to join her. Dorne was offering a safe haven for Dany. As part of the pact, she could have had Doran accept her refugees into his kingdom, much as Dorne accepted the Rhoynar. It would have been a win all round.

Except for the many she would have to leave behind. You can't transplant an entire population like that. That's a band-aid solution at best. And not as fail-safe as you seem to think it is. Do you really think that Dorn could easily handle that kind of mass-immigration?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Except for the many she would have to leave behind. You can't transplant an entire population like that. That's a band-aid solution at best. And not as fail-safe as you seem to think it is. Do you really think that Dorn could easily handle that kind of mass-immigration?

Easily? No. Mass migration is never easy, but Dorne is very self-sufficient. It grows the majority of the realms citrus fruits and the like. The climate will be very familiar and comparable for the Dothraki. I think it could be a perfect fit. Dorne needs people who can adapt to the harsh conditions that it has to offer and Dany's horde fits the bill. Skilled labor, young warriors to train and women to father more sons, whats not to like.

[Jon AS]

I am by no means a sexist my friend. I have the upmost respect for the strength and intelligence that women exhibit on a daily basis. My disappointment and frustration w/ Dany stems from how her character has seemed to regress so badly b/t the books.

The impression arises from you connecting Dany's sexuality to her professional competence, despite the text making no causal connection between the two.

As to her "regressing", I think that's more her story not taking the direction you want/expect it to, and not supported by the text either. What she tries to accomplish in A Storm of Swords is very different from her aims in A Dance with Dragons, most notably, in the latter she tries to find a moral solution to the problems she created during the course of the former.

I thought Westeros was the whole point. Being the daughter of Aerys, the sister of Rhaegar and the blood of the dragon. Why continue to masquerade as some transformative ruler who rules over a city who does not want transformation. I would argue that leaving the city in Hizdhar's hands would not be such a bad thing. She should take the riches of war that she has accumulated and set sail for home.

Except that she's taken on the responsibility to ensure that everyone she has freed stays free. She can't take them all with her, and if she leaves them behind they'll find themselves enslaved (or worse) pretty soon. She's trying to find a permanent solution, but it never gets off the ground because she's whisked away by a dragon at a crucial point.

And quite apart from that, she doesn't really care about Westeros. She's never been there, all she knows about it is from what other people have told her (and contrary to Viserys she harbours no delusions that she will be received by the cheering masses and promptly installed on the Iron Throne if she goes there). It was a convenient goal to set herself when she was aimless, but now that she has taken on the role of a liberator in Slaver's Bay she doesn't need such a nebulous concept, in fact spending time dreaming about going to Westeros would probably be a distraction from her very real current responsibilities.

Why would Quentyn bring a foreign army to her? He is offering her his troops where they will be of most use to her, and he is offering her a safe home base to relocate her people and launch the reconquest of her native land.

Because she needs help right then, right there. And Westeros may be her native land, but she was taken away from there only days after she was born.

If not Westeros, what was the point? Instead of doing the logical thing, she chooses to bed Daario. A man of questionable loyalty at best. A man well below her station. I'm sorry but I find it very sorted.

Us readers know that shit is going down in Westeros, and that it's ultimately probably more important than the events in Essos, but to Dany it doesn't look that way. What's the difference really between fighting the enemies that are threatening her right now and those she'd create by going west? Except that one makes a hell of a lot more sense, of course.

And her sleeping with Daario is completely seperate from this: she does that because she enjoys it. As NotSoSilentSister says, he's the one indulgence she allowes herself, and she ends it when she gets married as from that point on it would in fact interfere with her ability to govern.

Oh I know, it's not at all surprising why she views Aegon one way and is suspicious of Dany based on the info she has. That she knows nothing of Viserys is certainly a major reason why she feels OK with blaming Dany for his death. Although he was the Mad King's son, which she never ponders the implications of like she did with Dany being his daughter, which I find a little odd.

It's rather pointles to speculate over Viserys' character at this point, though, and she knows that. She needs to deal with the living Targaryen(s).

I would contrast Arianne's assumption that Dany let Viserys die (maybe even plotted it) with characters who do not seem to assume Dany was at fault like Illyrio and Tyrion (Illyrio knew Viserys and told Tyrion what he was like), JC and Aegon (who too might have gotten the scoop on Viserys from Illyrio) and even Quentyn, who never considers that possibility even though he ponders several scary stories about Dany that he learned on the way to meet her. IIRC, the story he hears is that 'her Khal killed her brother, and then she killed her khal' or something like that (someone feel free to correct me if I am remembering the text wrong, it's been a while since I read a Quent chapter).

Quentyn of course was predisposed to wanting to assume the best of his bride-to-be. He was already in over his head, driving himself crazy worrying that Dany might murder him on their wedding night would probably not have been helpful.;)

Daemon's 'or so you say' reply means he doubts the sincerity of that statement, but the question I then have is why?

My reading of Daemon is that, while he may or may not still have romantic feelings for Arianne, he certainly felt that him being rejected as a suitor was as much her doing as it was her father's, and that her motivation was that she wanted a husband of higher birth. So from that he might suspect that maybe Arianne would very much like to be queen.

Arianne's hesitation on the other hand is something I see as her struggling with the responsibility and really trying to see the pros and cons for either hypothetical scenario that might arise:

-Aegon is fake: suddenly there's a usurper with a big army making inroads in the Stormlands when Dorne is working towards installing Dany and Quentyn on the Iron Throne. Clearly this spells trouble.

-Aegon is real: well, this is where it gets awkward; first of all, he's family and the rightful heir to the throne, so they kinda have to help him. But then they've just sent Quentyn to Dany to offer her their support, and she happens to have dragons...doubly awkward if someone proposes to seal the alliance by a marriage between Aegon and Arianne.

Then Arianne's whole 'I love my brother, I do, I do. No, I really, really do, I swear it' conversation with herself just tells me that Daemon's suspicions are right of the money, b/c the lady doth protest too much. Daemon clearly hit a very raw nerve with that accusation, and Arianne feels bad that he is right, b/c it makes her feel like a bad sister who does not love her brother (which based on how she felt about Quent not too long ago, is probably kind of true).

On the one hand, she loves her brother as a matter of course because he's her brother. On the other hand, as she herself thinks, she hardly knows him. And then there's the part where she resented him for the better part of a decade or so because she thought her father preferred him over her. Of course she has mixed feelings, but she doesn't wish him ill.

All in all, Arianne's feelings and views on these matters make total sense. But at the same time, these preconceptions she is forming will likely lead to disaster. Once news of Quentyn’s death hits, she will immediately blame Dany b/c of the skewed way she is already starting to view her (even more so if Drink returns with his version of events). It’s unlikely imo that she will be inclined to investigate into the matter too deeply (I’m assuming once one considers the context of the event, one would conclude that the fault does not lie with Dany; if anyone disagrees with that, that’s fine), and will instead just accept Dany’s culpability at face value b/c it fits so well her preconceived notions of just what type of person Dany is. Which this case, is an ambitious woman willing to go to extreme lengths to secure “her rights”; a view point which, as you kind of said, Arianne is projecting onto Dany b/c of her own past actions, the things she was willing to do to her father and Quent for “her own rights”.

I wouldn't say that Arianne has preconceived notions about who Dany is, but she is willing to entertain that she's not the one who will deliver Dorne all they desire. What her reaction to the news of Quentyn's death will be will depend very much on how she gets said news (I've very much given up on trying to predict Martin's plot, though. There are way, way too many variables).

And again: Arianne empathises with Viserys in Dany's story, because that's what she thought herself to be: the rightful heir deposed by a younger sibling. It's Quentyn who is Dany in that scenario, not Arianne.

It would appear that Doran has no easy access, at least amongst those he can trust, to someone who could visually ID Jon Connington.

How many people in Westeros would be able to tell that Connington is who he claims to be, though? People don't travel that much, and it's been about 18 years since he was exiled. Most of his close acquaintances were probably Stormlords and members of the royal court. Sure, he was at Harrenhal, for example, but the only Dornishmen we know for sure to have been there (Prince Oberyn, Prince Lewyn and Ser Arthur Dayne, I think) are dead.

Connington's identity is of secondary importance at best, though. Aegon is the important one.

Easily? No. Mass migration is never easy, but Dorne is very self-sufficient. It grows the majority of the realms citrus fruits and the like. The climate will be very familiar and comparable for the Dothraki. I think it could be a perfect fit. Dorne needs people who can adapt to the harsh conditions that it has to offer and Dany's horde fits the bill. Skilled labor, young warriors to train and women to father more sons, whats not to like.

Dorne is a desert, neither Slaver's Bay nor the Dothraki Sea (though really, her Khalasar has like a hundred people or thereabouts) really are the same climate. And Dorne's climate also means that there is not a lot of fertile land to be found, which is why it has the smallest population of the Seven Kingdoms. A massive influx of refugees would certainly not be welcome there, nevermind the mindblowing logistical task of shipping everyone from Slaver's Bay to Westeros and feeding them along the way.

[History of Westeros]

How many people in Westeros would be able to tell that Connington is who he claims to be, though? People don't travel that much, and it's been about 18 years since he was exiled. Most of his close acquaintances were probably Stormlords and members of the royal court. Sure, he was at Harrenhal, for example, but the only Dornishmen we know for sure to have been there (Prince Oberyn, Prince Lewyn and Ser Arthur Dayne, I think) are dead.

Great post, I snipped all that wasn't in response to me. Allow me to wholeheartedly agree that Dany and Arianne are both being unfairly cast for their sexuality. I find claims of Dany's regression as a character to be baseless, and as you say, oft rooted in disappointment with the direction of her arc. A disappointment I do not share, personally. I enjoy all the Essos chapters. If George wants to write about it, I want to read it.

I don't think it's *strange* that Doran has nobody on hand, whom he trusts to be alone in a small party with Arianne, that can ID Jon Connington. But it wouldn't have been strange if he *did* have someone who could know him. Doran probably went to court for Elia's wedding, and we know Rhaegar and JC were very tight, seeing as how JC was Rhaegar's squire. (also JC was in love, most likely). It's an extremely safe assumption that Doran did not attend the wedding alone. In fact, it's quite likely that a significant portion of the Dornish nobility attended this wedding. After all, a Dornish princess was marrying into the royal house. Look at how many lords went with Oberyn to Joffrey's wedding.

Same goes for your mention of the Tourney at Harrenhal. The characters you mentioned are all dead, but their squires? The rest of their party? Hardly likely that every single one of those people is dead. So between Harrenhal, Elia's wedding, plus tourneys I think it's extremely unlikely that *no one in Dorne* has ever seen Jon Connington. Furthermore, Connington is somewhat striking of a figure, given that he is red-haired and was highly regarded as a bold and skilled fighter.

The implication is that none of those potential witnesses is someone that Doran trusts, and this is what I find interesting. It may speak to Doran's relative unpopularity as a ruler. I think the majority of us are aware of this, but perhaps it's worse that we thought.

Note that in my post I was pointing out the general youth of the party as well as the lack of someone who could know JC on sight.

In general, it's noteworthy how little Doran seems to trust anyone outside of his family. The people he works most closely with, apart from Hotah, are blood relatives. He doesn't seem to have a particularly close relationship with his maester. Before he worked mostly with Oberyn, who had his flaws, but was experienced. Now he's entrusting quite a bit to younger members of his family.. those he trusted so little as recently as when he had them all locked up. I think that's an interesting aspect of his personality, and speaks to his overall level of mistrust and caution. He took it very seriously when the Sand Snakes swore an oath on their father's grave. That scene made it seem like the oath was extremely crucial to his ability to trust them.

[History of Westeros]

Connington's identity is of secondary importance at best, though. Aegon is the important one.

More on this.

I agree that Aegon's identity is more important, but his is the one that's not provable by any degree of certainty. I suppose there's only two people, maybe one, who know the real truth of who Aegon is. Arianne is not being sent there to determine if he's real, so to speak. She's going to see if his *cause* is real. Like, can he win. She has zero ability to actually determine who Aegon's parents are.

Not so Jon Connington. There are several people in Westeros who will know he's the real deal once they see him.

Doran is aware of all of these angles. He knows it doesn't matter whether Aegon is really the son of Rhaegar and Elia (though undoubtedly Doran hopes he is) nor whether Jon Connington is really who he claims to be. What matters is if they can win the Iron Throne.

[Jon AS]

In general, it's noteworthy how little Doran seems to trust anyone outside of his family. The people he works most closely with, apart from Hotah, are blood relatives. He doesn't seem to have a particularly close relationship with his maester. Before he worked mostly with Oberyn, who had his flaws, but was experienced. Now he's entrusting quite a bit to younger members of his family.. those he trusted so little as recently as when he had them all locked up. I think that's an interesting aspect of his personality, and speaks to his overall level of mistrust and caution. He took it very seriously when the Sand Snakes swore an oath on their father's grave. That scene made it seem like the oath was extremely crucial to his ability to trust them.

I do think he relied on Oberyn a lot, but he has others whom he trusts, like lord Yronwood (and lord Fowler at least commands the second army, right?) who sent his own son with Quentyn. Given that the Yronwoods are the strongest vassals of house Martell, that looks pretty good for Doran (and lord Fowler's daughters seem to be rather close with Nymeria Sand, so I'd say that's another one he can count on...).

Now very few people were involved in his secret plans, but I think that's not so much because of innate distrust on his part as it was the need for utmost secrecy. He knows that Dorne is the weakest realm in Westeros and will not risk war unless he can be sure it is worth it. What he can probably count on is that his people will follow his call to war when it is given, but he has several subjects, like the Sand Snakes, whom he needs to keep on a really short leash or they can wreak havoc with his plans and plunge Dorne into a war it cannot win. After what Oberyn did he's simply not taking any chances any more.

She has zero ability to actually determine who Aegon's parents are.

Yes, it's very much an impossible task in that respect. But it's also clear that Connington and the Golden Company will have some "proof" for their claims, they know they'll need those, and at least those Arianne will be able to evaluate.

There may very well be people who knew Connington in Dorne, but they won't be numerous (the elapsed time, Robert's Rebellion itself and the fact that distances in Westeros are huge pretty much guarantees this) and they might be at the other end of the country right now for all we know (people from northwestern Dorne having the most reason to frequently deal with the Stormlands). I don't think he would have difficulty finding knights or lords whom he could entrust Arianne's safety to, just finding them on short notice is probably hard, and doubly so if they are supposed to be of assistance beyond simple bodyguard duties. Speed is of the essence here, since Dorne might miss its chance if they don't figure out what exactly is going on as quickly as possible, and in that light Daemon might not have been his ideal choice, just the best he could do at the time.

[History of Westeros]

I do think he relied on Oberyn a lot, but he has others whom he trusts, like lord Yronwood (and lord Fowler at least commands the second army, right?) who sent his own son with Quentyn. Given that the Yronwoods are the strongest vassals of house Martell, that looks pretty good for Doran (and lord Fowler's daughters seem to be rather close with Nymeria Sand, so I'd say that's another one he can count on...).

Now very few people were involved in his secret plans, but I think that's not so much because of innate distrust on his part as it was the need for utmost secrecy. He knows that Dorne is the weakest realm in Westeros and will not risk war unless he can be sure it is worth it. What he can probably count on is that his people will follow his call to war when it is given, but he has several subjects, like the Sand Snakes, whom he needs to keep on a really short leash or they can wreak havoc with his plans and plunge Dorne into a war it cannot win. After what Oberyn did he's simply not taking any chances any more.

Fowler I can’t say too much about, but Lord Yronwood is not someone that Doran will trust with this mission. In fact, he’s likely to want to keep it very secret from many of the lords, especially Lord Yronwood. The mission to Dany is a much different situation. I will explain:

First, trusting of the Yronwoods in general can only go so far, as Quentyn's fostering was largely done as a way to heal the damage Oberyn had caused by murdering, by poison(!), their lord (doesn’t matter if Oberyn really did it or not, they all think he did). Quentyn has done a lot to repair the damage between the two houses, but their loyalty is ultimately to HIM, not Doran, not Arianne and certainly not the Sand Snakes or anything related to the man who killed their Lord.

Second, Not only that, but House Yronwood has wanted to supplant the Martells as far back as history takes us. They rose thrice during the Blackfyre Rebellions (in opposition to the Martells) and the respective Lord Yronwoods won’t forget that they were larger than House Martell before Nymeria brought them her strength.

(time to remind everyone that of course, no one relevant yet knows Quentyn is dead)

Third, look at the political ramifications from Lord Yronwood’s POV:

Quentyn marrying Daenerys? Good. Powerful friend becomes more powerful.

Arianne marrying Aegon? Bad. Quentyn can no longer be king, and possibly they find themselves backing the guy who is, by marriage to Dany, now in opposition to Aegon IV. In other words, by backing Quentyn/Dany, they may invite conflict with Aegon/Arianne.

Furthermore, Lord Yronwood knows Arianne is close to the Sand Snakes (bad association), and that she was behind the foolish plot to crown Myrcella. He has no idea she’s done a good bit of maturing, like we readers do.

In summary, there are a host of reasons for Lord Yronwood to prefer Quentyn/Dany over Arianne/Aegon.

Yes, it's very much an impossible task in that respect. But it's also clear that Connington and the Golden Company will have some "proof" for their claims, they know they'll need those, and at least those Arianne will be able to evaluate.

Agreed.

There may very well be people who knew Connington in Dorne, but they won't be numerous (the elapsed time, Robert's Rebellion itself and the fact that distances in Westeros are huge pretty much guarantees this) and they might be at the other end of the country right now for all we know (people from northwestern Dorne having the most reason to frequently deal with the Stormlands). I don't think he would have difficulty finding knights or lords whom he could entrust Arianne's safety to, just finding them on short notice is probably hard, and doubly so if they are supposed to be of assistance beyond simple bodyguard duties. Speed is of the essence here, since Dorne might miss its chance if they don't figure out what exactly is going on as quickly as possible, and in that light Daemon might not have been his ideal choice, just the best he could do at the time.

Good point. He may have had people he could trust that could ID Connington, but no time to get word to them and/or wait for them to meet up with Arianne’s group. That said, eventually word will spread that it’s really him, because a few people who know him will see him and verify it.

Despite all of what we’ve discussed, I am still a bit puzzled by the overall youthfulness of the party. No “elder statesman/voice of experience” type.

[chrisdaw]

Doran knows a lot about a lot of people, including maybe something about Jon Conn's preferences. Daemon Sand is not only a good sword/fighter and student of Oberyn. Maybe Doran sent Daemon as someone to entice/seduce Jon Conn.

I thought this too, there's that hint that he bedded Oberyn and then the way Arianne asks herself the question of why him.

[History of Westeros]

heh, it's misspelled "Spotted Slyva" all 3 times it appears in the chapter.

Slyva is an awfully unappealing name for a woman. ;)

[TalalOfDorne]

Seems a little odd to me, but not a huge deal I suppose. You'd think Doran might've at least included someone experienced, but given how much he's entrusted to the Sand Snakes (who are also relatively inexperienced, it seems), it seems he may not have a lot of people around that he can trust. Certainly not older people, it seems.

This is what makes me sad. He tries to get things done but he has no one to trust. And the few people he did trust, Oberyn and Quentyn got themselves killed. If only his family wasn't so hot-headed and rash he would be in a better position :frown5: .

[Jon AS]

Fowler I can’t say too much about, but Lord Yronwood is not someone that Doran will trust with this mission. In fact, he’s likely to want to keep it very secret from many of the lords, especially Lord Yronwood. The mission to Dany is a much different situation. I will explain.

That's making the big assumption that reaching out to Connington means a marriage alliance with Aegon. That's not guaranteed (it's not even explicitly mentioned as an option, I think), and given Targaryen predilictions, it's entirely reasonable to assume that Aegon's appearance on the stage will scupper the Quentyn plan for entirely different reasons (which is exactly what Connington is hoping for, in fact, though of course he doesn't know about Doran's plans).

My point about the Yronwoods was that, yes, they're the Martell's biggest rivals, but the current generation seems to be trusted and loyal enough to be included in Doran's most secretive plans (they certainly knew more about them, and earlier, than Arianne) so he's unlikely to get trouble on that front. Actually, Doran seems to have Dorne pretty well in hand from what we have seen so far: sure, there may have been some grumbling, but the only people who dared act openly against him were his closest relatives and he has easily enough power to keep them in check. His major vassals are either loyal enough or not strong enough to be a serious challenger. The one subject he can't seem to control is Gerold Dayne, and he seems determined to put a stop to that.

As for the relative youth of the party, one should consider that at some point age becomes a liability when it comes to making long journeys in winter. And with most of Dorne's strength concentrated in the west (even house Toland sent a big contingent, it seems, and they are all the way on the northeastern tip of the peninsula, and Hotah and Obara probably took a few people with them as well) it's not hard to imagine that the people left in the east are mostly on the etxreme ends of the age spectrum.

[History of Westeros]

That's making the big assumption that reaching out to Connington means a marriage alliance with Aegon. That's not guaranteed (it's not even explicitly mentioned as an option, I think), and given Targaryen predilictions, it's entirely reasonable to assume that Aegon's appearance on the stage will scupper the Quentyn plan for entirely different reasons (which is exactly what Connington is hoping for, in fact, though of course he doesn't know about Doran's plans).

I can see why you'd say that, but I'm not actually making the assumption that Arianne and Aegon would get married. I'm making the assumption that Lord Anders would perceive the possibility of that marriage, and if so, he very well might not like it. When considering this, one must keep in mind that Arianne likely has a reputation as a seductress. So Lord Yronwood could sense the possibility that Arianne would seduce Aegon. This is by no means automatic in my mind. But remember that we're talking about Doran Martell... He's inclined to be secretive in the first place. So if it occurs to him that Lord Anders might not like this plan, he is gonna keep it under wraps.

And of course, in general, he's not going to tell anyone who doesn't need to know. I don't see any vital reasons for Prince Doran to include Lord Yronwood in this plot.

My point about the Yronwoods was that, yes, they're the Martell's biggest rivals, but the current generation seems to be trusted and loyal enough to be included in Doran's most secretive plans (they certainly knew more about them, and earlier, than Arianne) so he's unlikely to get trouble on that front. Actually, Doran seems to have Dorne pretty well in hand from what we have seen so far: sure, there may have been some grumbling, but the only people who dared act openly against him were his closest relatives and he has easily enough power to keep them in check. His major vassals are either loyal enough or not strong enough to be a serious challenger. The one subject he can't seem to control is Gerold Dayne, and he seems determined to put a stop to that.

Darkstar is certainly the most openly disloyal, but he's not remotely alone.

At the feast where Ser Gregor's skull is presented:

"Hotah paid more attention to those that who did not drink: Ser Daemon Sand, Lord Tremond Gargalen, the Fowler Twins, Dagos Manwoody, the Ullers of the Hellholt, the Wyls of the Boneway. If there is trouble, it could start with one of them. Dorne was an angry and divided land, and Prince Doran's hold on it was not as firm as it might be. Many of his own lords thought him weak and would have welcomed open war with the Lannisters and the boy king on the Iron Throne."

(interestingly, there are no Yronwoods mentioned at this feast, which probably doesn't mean much, but I think it at least bears mention).

To be fair, the oaths sworn by the Sand Snakes helped Doran's situation a lot. The Sand Snakes are/were amongst the chief agitators calling for war. Their peace with Doran perhaps calmed down some of the others. Though undoubtedly not all of them.

As for the relative youth of the party, one should consider that at some point age becomes a liability when it comes to making long journeys in winter. And with most of Dorne's strength concentrated in the west (even house Toland sent a big contingent, it seems, and they are all the way on the northeastern tip of the peninsula, and Hotah and Obara probably took a few people with them as well) it's not hard to imagine that the people left in the east are mostly on the etxreme ends of the age spectrum.

Yeah I hadn't really considered the twin hosts as a reason for the lack of other nobles about. Good point. Still, without knowing Jayne Ladybright's age, it appears the oldest person in the group is ~24.

[History of Westeros]

Fun familial connections tidbit:

Ser Daemon Sand is the bastard son of Ryon Allyrion, the heir to Godsgrace.

Ryon Allyrion is married to Ynys Yronwood, the heir to Yronwood and great-granddaughter of Edgar Yronwood.

Edgar Yronwood was (allegedly) poisoned by The Red Viper.

So Oberyn's former squire is the son of a man whose wife's great-grandfather died "giving birth" to that famous nickname, "the Red Viper".

Good stuff.