[Sample] Arianne I

[Arkash]

Besides, Tyrion already suspects Aegon is fake, so he will certainly be able to tell her about his suspicions if he is around (which it seems he will be, since why else has he been transported all the way to Meereen?).

I have my doubts about the last part... imagine if Tyrion never crosses Dany's path ? But let us wait and see...

It doesnt matter if Dany could have done anything to prevent Viserys' death... in the eyes of Westerosi, she may be seen as a kinslayer and that is all that will count in the end...

Arianne is the first one we read about thinking this, but when Dany will be more "known" in Westeros, more and more people will think it... she may be considered as mad as her father and... well, just paraphrasing what has been said a hundred times on this thread... BAM... Dance of Dragons.

[Lyanna Stark]

But ser Axell couldn't have done much either, it was the king who ordered the burning. In eyes of Westeros and probably Jon she let her brother die and not few will even think that she had him murdered so she could rule.

Jon's thoughts seem to infer that Ser Axell could have done something. "He had done little and less to stop it", infers that he could at least have voiced a complaint to Stannis, which I think isn't unlikely. Stannis may not have listened, but see for instance Davos. Stannis is also a "truly just man" so he would certainly have heard the complaint and taken it duly under consideration, and then probably discarded it, but I cannot see Ser Axell as in an identical position to Dany. Ser Axell was not threatened himself, nor were his children threatened by his brother.

Of course, as you point out, this may be of no consequence to people in Westeros who will just hear that Dany let her brother die and draw their own conclusions. In this, it probably matters whether Dany is allowed to speak for herself, or if rumours lay the foundation for "truth".

Interesting as well, since Doran is asking for "what we know is true" and no rumours, but with so many contradicting stories and lack of proper background information, how can one know? Perhaps. despite it all, Ser Axell did complain to Stannis and Jon just doesn't know?

Truth is often elusive in ASOIAF.

[I do not sew]

Realistically, just having the last name Targ combined with the details of Viserys' death is enough for the common folk to label her insane, and that's before it gets twisted.

And then there's, you know, everything she's done since then.

[SeanF]

But ser Axell couldn't have done much either, it was the king who ordered the burning. In eyes of Westeros and probably Jon she let her brother die and not few will even think that she had him murdered so she could rule.

Dany could have put in a plea for Viserys, but should she? After all, it was seconds after he'd been threatening to cut her unborn child out of her. I read the Crown of Gold scene as Dany freezing in shock as everything unfolded in front of her. Unlike Ser Axell, she didn't really have time to think about what was happening.

However, a lot of third parties will take the same view as Arianne, that Dany welcomed her brother's death. And, I do wonder if subconsciously, Dany was coming to the conclusion that her brother had to go if the Targaryens were to be restored to the Iron Throne.

[SeanF]

It's not quite true that there's no thought in her mind of marriage. There is: and it's decidedly against it, as he's not of high enough birth.

Why she has to give up sleeping with men is beyond me. The mistake with Darkstar was that it led to her trusting him. But Daemon Sand is not just anyone: he's someone who was arrested for speaking out against the arrest of the Sandsnakes, who has close associations with the Martell family through Oberyn, who has been a friend of Arianne's for a decade and more... and, perhaps most importantly, he's a person that Doran trusts, and Doran is very cautious and doesn't give his trust lightly.

So why shouldn't she have a fling with him? It's not at all similar to the situation with Darkstar, where her head got turned around because of her lust for him and so she made a misjudgment. There's nothing hinging on Daemon. I suppose there's always the potential that by striking up a renewed sexual relationship, she might start to give too much weight to his opinions or otherwise start thinking of things in ways she wouldn't normally do so. Or he might start giving in to her more easily, because of that relationship, and so can't play the role of a cautious adviser as effectively. But that all seems relatively remote, and pretty small fry. From her view, it was a way to pass the time in a pleasurable fashion, and there were no stakes being put at risk by it, unlike with Ser Gerold Dayne.

In modern parlance it's "unprofessional". She's been sent on a complex diplomatic mission, and she ought to be well aware that Ser Daemon is still feeling pretty bruised about the outcome of their former relationship (obviously, he's too low born to marry her, but no one is going to like being told that). Ser Daemon is pretty resentful when she suggests sleeping with him, and that's not a feeling she wants to encourage if she wants her mission to succeed.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

What a lovely gift, I had given up all hope of a new chapter this year now that it's January 10th!

I love how people are all excited about Dorne and and cheer for Arianne.... when 5 years ago it was all hate for Dorne chapters, how boring Arianne was, how no one wanted to read about Hotah how AFFC sucked. Looks like The Winds will disperse some negativity about AFFC & ADWD.

Because they are leaving Dorne :P

[Ran]

... and she ought to be well aware that Ser Daemon is still feeling pretty bruised about the outcome of their former relationship

She's aware of it. She thinks sleeping with him, perhaps even taking him on as a paramour, would be a nice consolation prize. She wasn't aware until this chapter how "bruised" he actually was.They were 14 years old when he apparently asked for her hand ("He was a boy then", which basically means when Arianne impetuously informed Doran that Daemon had deflowered her, Daemon then felt compelled to try and "make it right" and ask for her hand, which he might not have had the courage to do otherwise despite apparently being madly in love with her; I can't help but think the Red Viper was having a great big laugh at all this when it was happening...) and a decade has passed, and in her mind some relationship is better than no relationship.

Daemon's more absolutist about it, and it's actually quite interesting that he has so much of a hang-up. Now she knows, knowing is half the battle, etc.

[SeanF]

I don't get why Arianne is being taken to be utterly against Daenerys. She's questioning both Aegon and Daenerys, pretty equally. She's basically uncertain about everything -- is, in some ways, actually not a very confident person and is not cocksure and self-assured [even when she was the "Queenmaker", she was basically egging herself on and justifying herself, rather than just getting on with it secure in the knowledge that she was right] -- and is trying to figure it out. She wonders if Aegon is really Aegon, she wonders what kind of man Jon Connington is, she tries to understand what life was like for Daenerys, she tries to interpret what little information she does have.

There's no absolutes from Arianne regarding Daenerys, just questions.

I actually think people make too much of Daemon seeming dubious about her desire to see Quentyn return. We're inside her head, unlike him, and there really isn't anything pointing to a desire to be Queen of Westeros. Indeed, she points out how her resentment of Quentyn was rooted in the belief she was being passed over as heir... and now she has her father's promise that she's heir, and she's fine with it. At best, her thinking is slowly moving her to being ready to try and betroth Aegon herself if it turns out Quentyn fails.

I did get some sense of bitterness towards Daenerys from the final sentences of the chapter.

We know, but Arianne doesn't, that she dodged a huge bullet by not being married to Viserys.

[Ran]

I find it hard to feel bitterness in "Perhaps" and "How do we know", though. She basically just doesn't know.

It's not like Arianne is very (or even particularly) upset about not getting to marry the Beggar King... and note that her concern as to whether Daenerys may take after the Mad King because she's his daughter would be a concern that would hold with Viserys as well.

[Tini]

And Aegon is the Mad King's grandson. He might take after his grandfather more than after his mother.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Dany is very good at deluding herself into believing things. She probably wont require proof. She will simply convince herself he is a pretender, I think, because it suits her. Subconciously she does not want it to be true, so she is incapable of admitting it given her erratic nature.

Well, she might not require proof that he's a pretender, but she might require proof that he's legit. And I suspect that Varys, Illyrio, JC and Co. might have trouble to provide it (even if he were). There can only be clues, there won't be certainty.

And by the time Dany learns about him, the decision whether to ally with him or not might be already somewhat taken from her - Aegon seems to be on a path where he's increasingly convinced that he can do it without her. He's poised to ally with Dorne (who'll probably harbour anti-Dany feelings after news of Quentin) and the Faith (while Dany is poised to ally with the Red Priests). Once Dany arrives in Westeros, a Targ/Targ alliance may no longer be politically feasible due to conflict between other allies.

Rumours about Aegon's illegitimacy will only be the cherry on top - they won't be what makes Dany take arms against him, but they might make her sleep easier about it.

[Lord Martin]

Here's a thought. Why did Doran send Daemon Sand, a former lover of Arianne?

I wonder if he did it to make it less likely that Arianne would ally with Aegon. Doran knows Arianne is a sucker for a pretty man and Aegon is just that... and her type given her prior infatuation with Dark Star. But with Daemon there, she might be distracted by Daemon or at least drawn to him and not Aegon (and she is drawn to Daemon).

But Daemon is also the squire of the Red Viper (a man with a wide sexual appetite and hot tempered) and Daemon himself is rumored to swing both ways. Daemon, plus Arianne plus Aegon could make for a messy love/lust triangle. So perhaps Doran thinks Daemon might step between Aegon and Arianne thus forcing her to stick to Doran's original plan, Dany and the Dragons (mistake on his part as Daemon rebuffed Arianne).

I tent to like Doran and think he's got some good ideas. But he's not that good. He's going to die, his safeguards will fail and the fate of Dorne will fall to Arianne.

[Alia of the knife]

I know the chapter thats being discussed is Dorne-centered, but this is a story about ICE and Fire, the Starks and the Targaryens. All these famlies, the Martells, the Tyrells, the Lannisters, the Freys, the Boltons, and Tullys are the "cause and affect, who impact both.

- Why should Aegon marry Arianne?

He really shouldn't need to. If we're going on the premise that Arianne may not acknowedge him, and may dangle that threat over his head for return of marriage, thats actually just as risky for the Martells. And as someone pointed out, I think it probable that Varys and Illryio have an ace up their sleeves to prove that he is legit

.

But, marriage alliances are typically made to bring peace,gain strength, or to bring the opposition back into the fold. The Martells should not be in opposition to their own family member who is half Martell himself, and their not that strong, so whats that conversation going to be?

"Oh, hi Cousin. even though we've been plotting endlessly for over fifteen years for vengeance, we're now going to turn our backs on dear Elias son unless you make her brothers daughter Queen?"

And remember, JonCon didn't exactly like Elia Martell, so he may not take kindly to having his influence over Aegon diminished by these outside forces such as the Martells, and even Tyrion, so he may still strive to keep Aegons hand free for Dany which might piss off Arianne, but not Doran since marrying Aegon was not the plan, though I agree using the accusation that Dany killed Quentyn might be what she does to try and bring this about.

I also agree she's projecting her own guilt over her treatment of Quentyn onto Dany.

- The Martells are a weak House. They really bring nothing to the table but a lot of drama and sex, (not that doesn't work on some level, but too much of that part of narrative, and they start looking like the Kardashians, or a Jerry Springer episode). But, they are just as dependent on the Targ. mystique for their own influence and survival.

You also have to take into account that the rest of Westeros may not be open to a foreign Queen, as many stil consider the Martells and Dorne that way, so the Fathers of Westeros may want Aegon to consider their own Daughters, (and you know Mace will try and slip Marge in there though they too should be natural allies to the Targaryens since it was the Targaryens who raised them from gardners).

Poor drunken Dontos did warn Sansa that the Tyrells were just Lannisters with flowers.

Torren Stark presided over the largest Kingdom of all the Kingdoms put together as even Robert stated.

Without the North, there are no Seven Kingdoms, and if the Ironborn ally with them, they will be even stronger, so Aegon actually may have to consider marrying the North to bring it back into the fold.

- The Motif of the "Sins of the Fathers, (Mothers)." If we go back, the Martells were not even the first choice for Rhaegar. Aerys sent Stannis's Father out to the Free Cities to try and find a suitable dragon mate for Rhaegar, most likely an old Varyian line. It could even be that the Targaryens were NOT marrying the Martells like they use to, but starting to marry into other Houses. They did get three Queens from Auranes House, so perhaps the Martells were worried they were on the downside.

Elias Mother was quite content to try and marry her children to the children of her best friend Johanna Lannister, but Tywin snubbed her and told her Cersei was for Rhaegar to which point Elias mother went straight to Aerys and undercut Tywin, or thats how Tywin saw it.

Tyrion wonders if Elia had married someone else if she wouldn't be alive today with her children growing tall around her.

- I think the Dragons themselves will determine who is of legitimate dragons blood, or who is a dragon just as they did with poor Quentyn, and it doesn't have to be a Targaryen. It could very well be a Blackfyre and that may be what Martin was alluding to all those years ago when asked about the Dragon riders.

- The Starks, (Jon) will have to be brought into this at some point if the theory is he needs the help of the Dragons to help destroy the Others.

Sansa, Bran, Rickon, as well as Arya, and I actually agree with the posters who stated that the Ironborn will end up in some kind of an alliance with the North in the end.

- The Starks Warging abilitites will also play a big part, whether it's a dragon, or a Kracken.

- Bran, but most especially Bloodraven will have their hands in this, and I imagine it will be Bloodraven who brings them all back together through his manipulations.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Since the Redwyne fleet passed through the Stepstones to return to the Reach and fight the ironmen, many sails from the Free Cities (Lyseni, Mrymen, Volantene) have been seen off the coast of Westeros. I know the Volantene dropped off the Golden Company, but could they have another purpose? To probe the present strength of a divided Westeros?

Everyone has speculated at the true intent of Lord Waters. Could it be a second "War of the Ninepenny Kings" style assault upon Westeros. What if he has a deal in place with a number of the free cities to muster their armies for a massive invasion after all of the houses have exhausted their strengths. Half the iron fleet was lost in the Stepstones as well. Could they be in on this?

Such an assault may work. Kings' Landing has no naval defense at the moment. Half the Tyrell army has left for the Stormlands. The Crown Lands are wide open. If Dorne's army marches north, whats to spare the Dornish Coast?

[Jslay427]

Has anyone though perhaps LF could be the perfumed seneschal?

[Little Red Riding Hood]

1-What harsh!

and rough that phrase of Daemon when Arianne invites him to her bed, and what she responds to him!

Although I am very disappointed that it was not a Sansa´sample :bawl: , or / and of Sandor ( Yeah! I still have not lost hope that George writes about him!)

........................................................................................................

Now, leaving aside a part of the fun, I must to go to another points :closedeyes: :

2-In this sample ..... Nothing happens!!! ... AGAIN!!! ... if someone tell me, that this sample would be part of aDwD,could not be more right.

I hope things happen in this book, Really!!!, And that this one don´t be AGAIN just another book where nothing happens.

3-Another thing, I miss the mastery with which were written Game, Clash or Storm, even Feast...this sample is frivolous, almost trivial; I´m sorry for my crudeness, but I feel it that way.

[Ran]

How many early chapters in the novels "have something happen", besides the prologues? Tyrion's first AGoT chapter has nothing really happen, his first ACoK chapter basically has nothing happen, his first ASoS chapter, his first ADwD chapter...

Basically, what you're seeing is one of the early chapters in the novel that is establishing what people are doing, what the present situation is, etc. The action tends to happen after the first quarter to a third of the novel.

[Arkash]

Moreover, George would never give us a big twist or event in a gift like this...

And many things did happen in the two previous books !

[SeanF]

Apart from Daenerys, is there any more suitable bride for Aegon (if he's real) than Arianne?

All the other great Houses are enemies of the Targaryens.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany is very good at deluding herself into believing things. She probably wont require proof. She will simply convince herself he is a pretender, I think, because it suits her. Subconciously she does not want it to be true, so she is incapable of admitting it given her erratic nature.

You clearly have a very incorrect view of Dany's character, then, as she showed absolutely no desire to take the throne for herself until she believed she was the last Targaryen. We already know that she doesn't particularly like ruling, so why would she start a war with someone she believes to be her family member?

I have a feeling that Tyrion's suspicions about Aegon are going to play a huge role, as will Dany's conquest of Pentos and her reunion with Illyrio (where, hopefully, Arya will have been sent).

But ser Axell couldn't have done much either, it was the king who ordered the burning. In eyes of Westeros and probably Jon she let her brother die and not few will even think that she had him murdered so she could rule.

This is just Jon being really naive. He grew up in a position of privilege where he had a very loving family, so he can't understand tensions between siblings. If Jon knew that Viserys had tried to rape Dany, I'm sure he would be as sympathetic towards her as most normal readers are.

But this is ignoring the fact that Dany couldn't have stopped it anyway. Even if she had persuaded Drogo not to kill him, one of the other khals would have done so.