[Sample] Arianne I

[koststerg]

The whole idea of a second “dance of dragons” war (according to the dream) is something I don’t find very possible. First of all why have a war-dance of dragons in the book called wind of winters and not in the book called dance of dragons? It doesn’t make sense. Secondly, the Others have already finished their job at Hardhome (or they have almost finished it) and there is no reason for them to delay the attack they have been planning for the last 8000 years. This attack will start before Dany’s return and the news will spread in Westeros and leave everyone with only 2 options, run for their life or unite and fight. There could be a dispute between Stannis and Aegon as to who will lead this war as the prince that was promised (and Dany’s arrival will “slay those lies”) but the idea of an open and long war between Dany and Aegon is too much I think.

[sifth]

Link??

I don't have the actual chapter, but GRRM did make a statement on his Not Blog, while writing ADWD. He talked about how he had a very hard time writing a new chapter now that he removed Tyrion from "a certain story line".

I could find the quote if you want, but it would take a lot of digging man, ha ha ha

[Bushido]

The whole idea of a second “dance of dragons” war (according to the dream) is something I don’t find very possible. First of all why have a war-dance of dragons in the book called wind of winters and not in the book called dance of dragons? It doesn’t make sense.

Because "the story grew in telling" and could no longer fit the limits of the 5th book.

Look up for GRRM quotes on the subject in the SSM section.

[Despot]

I was convinced that a second Dance of a dragons will be a war between Dany and Aegon - it still is most likely solution, though, but I'm not so sure anymore. It seems to me that Greyjoy's will have one or two dragons under their control for a while - and there are some prophesies about Euron and "see of blood", Victarion and his glory, etc.

So, it is a wide speculation, but, for now, I think that Euron will be the guy that burn cities when Dany finally hits Westeros, not Aegon.

In any case, the prime of Euron power is yet to come, and most probably, he will have dragon(s). I can't really think of anyone who is capable to stop him, beside Dany.

[sifth]

I was convinced that a second Dance of a dragons will be a war between Dany and Aegon - it still is most likely solution, though, but I'm not so sure anymore. It seems to me that Greyjoy's will have one or two dragons under their control for a while - and there are some prophesies about Euron and "see of blood", Victarion and his glory, etc.

So, it is a wide speculation, but, for now, I think that Euron will be the guy that burn cities when Dany finally hits Westeros, not Aegon.

In any case, the prime of Euron power is yet to come, and most probably, he will have dragon(s). I can't really think of anyone who is capable to stop him, beside Dany.

I'm still expecting the horn to be a fake and Vic meeting a similar faith as a certain prince when he does blow that horn, ha ha ha

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I'm still expecting the horn to be a fake and Vic meeting a similar faith as a certain prince when he does blow that horn, ha ha ha

I'm still hoping the horn has something to do with Targaryen blood. It would make so much more sense.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I would love to see both Dany and Arianne be more like Queen Elizabeth Tudor and cut all romantic ties to men until the fighting is done. Neither appear capable of keeping their romantic trysts from clouding their judgment. Ser Barristan can't even execute his plans for defending Meereen b/c of Dharrio and Arianne's primary tactic for negotiation is seduction. Women using their sex to control men has failed time and again (see Cleopatra).

Ah, a woman's work is never done, and that also applies to Queens and fighting. And yet even Good Queen Bess found some time for romantic entanglements (the virgin thing was probably more marketing than actual truth). She did not have husbands, but she did have her favourites (Sir Robert Dudley; talk about a distraction).

Seduction as a primary tactic for negotiation might describe what we've seen from Arianne so far, but it's a grave misjudgement of Dany. The only time that ever really applied to her was with Drogo and she simply did not have any other options then. But since her dragons hatched she's been primarily using those to control men (and her Dothraki and her unsulliied armies), not sex. Who would rely on seduction when you can use fire and blood? Certainly not Dany, if her past conquests are any indication.

The Hizdar-thing is not about negotiation-by-seduction - that's a bog-standard political marriage based on the pursuit of hopefully shared future interests, like Renly and Joffrey and Tommen marrying Marg or Robb being promised to the Frey girl, only, unlike Robb, Dany has actually enough of a sense of duty to go through with it. It may still be a bad idea, but it's certainly not about trying to control someone with sex.

And Daario is not about negotiation-by-seduction either. He's not all that crucial to Dany's reign; he's just a random sellsword she's bedding for fun. Barristan is mainly hampered in his plans by his own hesitation about taking the lead after a lifetime of being a loyal follower. He's used to executing orders and making his own decisions does not come to him naturally. When he finally steps up to the plate, concerns about Dany's grief about Daario's potential demise can't stop him from moving against Hizdar and risking the lifes of the hostages.

[Alia of the knife]

This Angevin temper tantrum thing sounds just so funny - not if they cut off your head of course - I am setting out to google...

Can't help envisaging a future where Aegon reverts to his parentage and pre-age five upbringing, and sits around ordering in girls from Lys and bales of his apricot treats or whatever it was.

On the Historical similarity between the Targaryens/"Waking the Dragon," and Angevin/Plantaganet Temperament :devil:

Dark and sticky, the Plantagenet web of intrigue often ensnared its diabolical spawn in a chiasma of dread and horror. The Angevins were believed to be descended from the devil, for according to legend, Melusine, the daughter of Satan, had married a Count of Anjou and borne him children. Her true identity was finally revealed when she was forced to stay throughout the Mass whereas previously she had slipped out before Holy Communion was taken. At the sight of the holy relics Melusine immediately flew through a stained glass window of the church and was seen no more. Her two eldest sons came along for the flight; the two younger ones stayed behind with 'Dad.' Oddly enough, among those who believed the story were the Angevins themselves.

But, could there be a more rational explanation for what happened that day? -Something free of superstition and hokus pokus? Irrespective of the 'supernatural' nonsense, there were some very real reasons that people referred to this collection of troublesome monarchs as 'A House of Devils'. - The Devils Brood

“Popular gossip told of the Plantagenet's descent from the daughter of the Devil himself. It was a convenient explanation for their demonic energy, their ferocious ruthlessness, and their sometimes wicked deeds. The violent temper of the Angevins, their vicious reaction to being thwarted or crossed, was almost pathological in its intensity, so there were many who agreed with this assessment.” - The Devils Brood.

[Alia of the knife]

I would love to see both Dany and Arianne be more like Queen Elizabeth Tudor and cut all romantic ties to men until the fighting is done. Neither appear capable of keeping their romantic trysts from clouding their judgment. Ser Barristan can't even execute his plans for defending Meereen b/c of Dharrio and Arianne's primary tactic for negotiation is seduction. Women using their sex to control men has failed time and again (see Cleopatra).

I'd throw Queen Mary of Scotland into that mix as well, but your right.

Just because you seduce a man, that doesn't necessarily mean you get what you want, because your probably juse one of his many women trying to do the same thing.

BUT, to be fair, when Edward Plantaganet, (a man who liked to get both his party and and women on), married Elizabeth Woodville because she kept saying "no," and since he plighted his troth to another woman many years before, throwing the validity of the marriage into question, as well as the legitimacy of their children, that threw a HUGE monkey wrench into the game of thrones.

And not to leave out John of Gaunt and Kathryn Swynford, (Blackfyres anyone) who started the whole succession mess to start with.

Since I started this series, all I've heard is the openness of Dorne,( which I actually wouldn't take for granted), but we do know their laws allow women to inherit, so my question is, WHY were these questions about Arianne being possibly bumped from the succession?

Was she paranoid, or was there something we don't know yet that predisposed her Father to question her personal suitability for succession since we know that her gender didn't bar her from it?

I know she didn't know of her Fathers plans, but not knowing shouldn't make her automatically think he's out to get her, and why wouldn't he bring her in on it?

Theres something a little Ned/Cat about this in terms of secrets.

[LordAlexOfTheWolds]

I loved this chapter, first Dornish one I've really enjoyed.

I read all the books once before I came on the forum, and I missed so much. But the forum has taught me about foreshadowing. Thiss is the first chapter I've read since I came on the forum and now I analyze every detail in my head when I see it, so the 'Dancing Dragons' dream burst off the page.

I assumed the talk of Krakens being seen was metaphorical and was just about the ironborn being spotted...

[History of Westeros]

But would it be so hard to force Arianne to write Sansa like letter?

Unlike innocent young Sansa, Arianne would probably be clever enough to insert some sort of coded phrase or warning to her father in any letter she was forced to write.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Ah, a woman's work is never done, and that also applies to Queens and fighting. And yet even Good Queen Bess found some time for romantic entanglements (the virgin thing was probably more marketing than actual truth). She did not have husbands, but she did have her favourites (Sir Robert Dudley; talk about a distraction).

Seduction as a primary tactic for negotiation might describe what we've seen from Arianne so far, but it's a grave misjudgement of Dany. The only time that ever really applied to her was with Drogo and she simply did not have any other options then. But since her dragons hatched she's been primarily using those to control men (and her Dothraki and her unsulliied armies), not sex. Who would rely on seduction when you can use fire and blood? Certainly not Dany, if her past conquests are any indication.

The Hizdar-thing is not about negotiation-by-seduction - that's a bog-standard political marriage based on the pursuit of hopefully shared future interests, like Renly and Joffrey and Tommen marrying Marg or Robb being promised to the Frey girl, only, unlike Robb, Dany has actually enough of a sense of duty to go through with it. It may still be a bad idea, but it's certainly not about trying to control someone with sex.

And Daario is not about negotiation-by-seduction either. He's not all that crucial to Dany's reign; he's just a random sellsword she's bedding for fun. Barristan is mainly hampered in his plans by his own hesitation about taking the lead after a lifetime of being a loyal follower. He's used to executing orders and making his own decisions does not come to him naturally. When he finally steps up to the plate, concerns about Dany's grief about Daario's potential demise can't stop him from moving against Hizdar and risking the lifes of the hostages.

I agree that Queen Elizabeth had her (distractions), but she proved to be strong enough of mind and will to never let her personal feelings come before the business of ruling the realm.

I know I am being too harsh w/ Dany, but it comes mostly from my disappointment at the major regression she has undergone in ADWD. Gone is the strong, confident and shrewd young warrior queen I came to love in ASOS, and in her place is some teenage girl cut right out of Twilight novels. I could have sworn that all of her girlish qualities were burned away in that funeral pyre, but in Dance we find a young girl playing at queen. Why spurn Quentyn and Dorne to remain in a land that may never be content with her rule. She has her dragons, her army and her home country in desperate need of her, but she marries slime like Hizdar, and in the process anchors herself to an unstable situation. GRRM has taken Hillary Clinton and turned her into Taylor Swift.

Lastly, why surrender your bed and your decency to some low-born, run-of-the-mill sell sword? Dany seems more concerned with bad boys than good governance. Her treatment of Quentyn was less than stellar. It will and should likely cost her Dornish loyalty. This is a woman who survived being sold to Drogo and almost being killed/raped by the "Titain of Bravvos." She survived the betrayal of Jorah and had the good sense to keep Ser Barristan. I ask again, "who is this masked woman in ADWD?" I just think she would be better of putting on a white dress and wearing a chastity belt for the time being.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Since I started this series, all I've heard is the openness of Dorne,( which I actually wouldn't take for granted), but we do know their laws allow women to inherit, so my question is, WHY were these questions about Arianne being possibly bumped from the succession?

Was she paranoid, or was there something we don't know yet that predisposed her Father to question her personal suitability for succession since we know that her gender didn't bar her from it?

I know she didn't know of her Fathers plans, but not knowing shouldn't make her automatically think he's out to get her, and why wouldn't he bring her in on it?

Theres something a little Ned/Cat about this in terms of secrets.

Are you suggesting she is really Oberyn's daughter by an affair with Doran's wife? Hmmm...interesting, but alas, not likely.

I think its possible that Doran, being the shrewd fellow he is, diagnosed Arianne with being unfit to rule. Being queen and being a ruler of an entire nation are two different things. Maybe he found her fit for one and not the other. If I thought that Quentyn was my mirror image and my daughter had more of my brother in her, I would want my son to follow me as well.

Gender discrimination could play a minor role. Fathers typically want male heirs to hand off to. This should not be a problem for Doran as his mother ruled before he did. However, its hard to escape ones internal feelings no matter how hard you try.

[Ser Jaime Goldenhand]

Reading this chapter felt like being home... I really enjoyed it!! Keep it coming Mr. George.

[Jon AS]

Since I started this series, all I've heard is the openness of Dorne,( which I actually wouldn't take for granted), but we do know their laws allow women to inherit, so my question is, WHY were these questions about Arianne being possibly bumped from the succession?

Was she paranoid, or was there something we don't know yet that predisposed her Father to question her personal suitability for succession since we know that her gender didn't bar her from it?

I know she didn't know of her Fathers plans, but not knowing shouldn't make her automatically think he's out to get her, and why wouldn't he bring her in on it?

It's told very plainly why this happened: Doran planned to marry Arianne to Viserys, and was therefore grooming his second child for succession from very early on. The trouble was that Arianne found out about the latter bit, but not the reason for it and thus assumed that Doran for some arbitrary reason decided to put her brother ahead of her. This in turn led to lots of resentment on Arianne's part, resulting in plenty of behaviour that made Doran think taking her into his confidence would be a really bad idea since he never realised where that came from until she threw it in his face in A Feast for Crows.

I agree that Queen Elizabeth had her (distractions), but she proved to be strong enough of mind and will to never let her personal feelings come before the business of ruling the realm.

Which is of course a pretty good description of what Dany does in A Dance with Dragons. Except contrary to Elizabeth she's a foreign occupier surrounded by hostile nations.

I know I am being too harsh w/ Dany, but it comes mostly from my disappointment at the major regression she has undergone in ADWD. Gone is the strong, confident and shrewd young warrior queen I came to love in ASOS, and in her place is some teenage girl cut right out of Twilight novels. I could have sworn that all of her girlish qualities were burned away in that funeral pyre, but in Dance we find a young girl playing at queen. Why spurn Quentyn and Dorne to remain in a land that may never be content with her rule. She has her dragons, her army and her home country in desperate need of her, but she marries slime like Hizdar, and in the process anchors herself to an unstable situation. GRRM has taken Hillary Clinton and turned her into Taylor Swift.

Dany finishes A Storm of Swords tired of not having a place to call home, realising that she's only been a conqueror so far (easy to do when you have a big army and three dragons; when all you have is a hammer...) and that she's become responsible for an awful lot of people in Slaver's Bay. Her choices were to basically cut her losses, pack up as many of her troops as she could manage to go to Westeros (a place she's never even seen, one she knows isn't exactly waiting to embrace her with open arms if she ever makes it there, which means more bloodshed if she goes that way), abandoning all the freedmen to the non-existent mercy of the slavers or stay and try to build a lasting peace in the region. Not being a callous sociopath, she chose the latter.

Lastly, why surrender your bed and your decency to some low-born, run-of-the-mill sell sword?

There's an awful lot of judgement packed into these couple of paragraphs, and this sentence is emblematic for it. Please don't take this as an accusation, but you do come across as terribly sexist here. Basically you're saying that a woman who embraces her sexuality surrenders her competence in the process. That is not what Dany does. She thinks Daario is hot, and after a while decides to start a sexual relationship with him, but she does not let it influence her decisions as a ruler.

Dany seems more concerned with bad boys than good governance.

Not true: she gives up Daario as a hostage to keep the peace.

Her treatment of Quentyn was less than stellar. It will and should likely cost her Dornish loyalty. This is a woman who survived being sold to Drogo and almost being killed/raped by the "Titain of Bravvos." She survived the betrayal of Jorah and had the good sense to keep Ser Barristan. I ask again, "who is this masked woman in ADWD?" I just think she would be better of putting on a white dress and wearing a chastity belt for the time being.

When Quentyn arrives, Dany is in the middle of trying to find a peaceful solution for the conflict in Slaver's Bay. That's her priority, not Westeros. She's already agreed to marry Hizdahr, hoping that this will shore up support in Meereen and maybe even placate the foreign armies.

If Quentyn had shown up with more than just a piece of paper detailing a deal that is no longer valid, but had instead brought a nice big army and fleet her reaction might have been different. But since he showed up with just a couple of retainers (and had to use trickery to even reach Meereen) he cannot possibly offer her anything useful. As a ruler trying to make the best decision for her people, she therefore rejects his proposal, puts him up as an honoured guest and lets him know that just because she won't marry him doesn't mean she might not be interested in an alliance with Dorne in the future (and points out that Dorne mostly wants said alliance to satisfy its own ambitions).

[Harlaw's Book]

It was fantastic to have a new sample chapter. This is nitpicky and doesn't really matter much, but do you think the scandal involving Oberyn purposely provoked Yronwood with the paramour as a pretext for the Martells to care of an unruly bannerman as opposed to doing a Rains of Castamere?

[Boar Hunter]

Arianne will never change. She is selfish, hot headed, sure of herself, and almost always wrong.....her story will be an interesting one, but I suspect that she will not be alive for long.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

@ Jon AS

I am by no means a sexist my friend. I have the upmost respect for the strength and intelligence that women exhibit on a daily basis. My disappointment and frustration w/ Dany stems from how her character has seemed to regress so badly b/t the books.

I thought Westeros was the whole point. Being the daughter of Aerys, the sister of Rhaegar and the blood of the dragon. Why continue to masquerade as some transformative ruler who rules over a city who does not want transformation. I would argue that leaving the city in Hizdhar's hands would not be such a bad thing. She should take the riches of war that she has accumulated and set sail for home.

Why would Quentyn bring a foreign army to her? He is offering her his troops where they will be of most use to her, and he is offering her a safe home base to relocate her people and launch the reconquest of her native land. If not Westeros, what was the point? Instead of doing the logical thing, she chooses to bed Daario. A man of questionable loyalty at best. A man well below her station. I'm sorry but I find it very sorted.

[TalalOfDorne]

The way I see it, this chapter telegraphs all the reasons that Dorne will be on the losing side in the coming confrontation. All of Arianne’s instincts about Daenerys are wrong, her desire to upstage her brother is in perpetual rise and instead of reading about how Dorne was able to resist the coming of dragons the last time they came, she is mooning about men. And then, of course, there are all the cynasse hints. Not a good receipe for success.

Though I hate to admit it but its true. Things aren't looking good for her and Dorne in the future. She has changed, but that still doesnt give her much experience or skill to handle this mission. At least not yet anyway.

As for the chapter Itself, well I liked Arianne (The Martells) when they were first introduced in the story, and this chapter only got me to love them more. And as someone mentioned before that the chapter is fast-paced much like the chapters the first three books (Though I really liked Feast). I guess now I have to emotionally prepare myself for any misfortunes that could damage House Martell.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I agree that Queen Elizabeth had her (distractions), but she proved to be strong enough of mind and will to never let her personal feelings come before the business of ruling the realm.

I know I am being too harsh w/ Dany, but it comes mostly from my disappointment at the major regression she has undergone in ADWD. Gone is the strong, confident and shrewd young warrior queen I came to love in ASOS, and in her place is some teenage girl cut right out of Twilight novels. I could have sworn that all of her girlish qualities were burned away in that funeral pyre, but in Dance we find a young girl playing at queen. Why spurn Quentyn and Dorne to remain in a land that may never be content with her rule. She has her dragons, her army and her home country in desperate need of her, but she marries slime like Hizdar, and in the process anchors herself to an unstable situation. GRRM has taken Hillary Clinton and turned her into Taylor Swift.

Lastly, why surrender your bed and your decency to some low-born, run-of-the-mill sell sword? Dany seems more concerned with bad boys than good governance. Her treatment of Quentyn was less than stellar. It will and should likely cost her Dornish loyalty. This is a woman who survived being sold to Drogo and almost being killed/raped by the "Titain of Bravvos." She survived the betrayal of Jorah and had the good sense to keep Ser Barristan. I ask again, "who is this masked woman in ADWD?" I just think she would be better of putting on a white dress and wearing a chastity belt for the time being.

Queen Bess was strong enough to put the realm before her personal feelings when it counted most, and there's no indication yet that Dany won't be capable of doing the same.

Sure, I can see why one might consider her approach to the Meereenese situation a mistake. But as JonAS before me pointed out so eloquently the situation is not as clear-cut as you seem to think it is. Quentin comes with promises but without an army and words are wind. There's no reason for Dany to assume that the Westerosi need her more than her freedman and Dothraki. Dany has pragmatic reasons for rejecting his offer and they go well beyond "he's not sufficiently sexy". Of course Barristan can't see them - he's focussed on Westeros and has no emotional investement in the well-being of Dany's freedmen at all. We as readers don't need to adopt his somewhat myopic perspective and therefore should not necessarily take his assessment that Dany would have accepted Quentin, had he been cuter, at face value.

As to "Why surrender your bed.." etc: Because he's apparently a good lay. Because he's the one indulgence she allows herself; the one thing capable of taking her mind of the burden of being the mother of dragons, slayer of lies, etc, etc. Because he's a distraction and there's value in that alone. In the past, the Targs have not always been well served by monomanic obsessions with their pet causes. Sometimes there can be something quite sanity-preserving in a distraction.

Finally, your assumption that sleeping with someone means "surrendering your deceny" is by no means shared by everybody; so that's fairly irrelvant from Dany's perspective.