[Sample] Arianne I

[sifth]

I just hope Arianne becomes our only POV in Jon Connington and Ageon's camp. Jon Connington's POV seemed very forced to me and I think even GRRM admitted that he originally was planning to keep Tyrion in their camp and evern wrote a version of the chapter in which the Golden Company swears to sever Ageon from Tyrion's POV.

We only need one set of eyes in that camp and Arianne is a very interesting character, who I strongly believed GRRM has underused up until this point

[Kasrith]

But would it be so hard to force Arianne to write Sansa like letter?

I don't think it would be necessary though, if the meeting goes well he has their support regardless. The only need to capture her to gain swords would be if they had previously been enemies of some sort, but his allegiance to the Targs almost goes hand in hand with Dornish support (through a long line of past marriages, and even, although unknowingly, the promised marriage pact of Doran's children)

[Ser Wun Wun]

How does Arianne putting herself in their power help Dorne at all though? Wouldn't the smarter play be to show some patience (a few days worth) and make them come to her? I'm also convinced Doran would be just as (probably more even) concerned about Arianne's safety as Daemon. He told her in the opening of the sample chapter that besides being his eyes and ears, he wanted her most of all to take care. He obviously knew it was a dangerous task he set before her, and was very worried about her welfare.

I came away from the sample chapter with the impression that Arianne was bitter about the death of Viserys, and still wanted to be Queen of Westeros (she strikes me as an ambitious person, so I'm not surprised she would want that). So I suspect her decision to go to Aegon so willingly was because deep down she had already decided to support him at that point, and was actually leaning that way from the start of her trip. Aegon's taking of SE, an impressive accomplishment, probably just sealed the deal for her (hard to say without seeing the text I'll admit, so I'm speculating). So she wasn't worried about them harming her, b/c she has every intention of backing them. Her internal thoughts don't spell this stuff out (unreliable narrator), but the subtext for all this is clearly there imo.

And why would she be so eager to support him? Because if he is the real deal and the true heir to the throne, it stands to reason that he must marry Arianne in order to fulfill the Targ/Martell pact. The questions Daemon asks her in the sample chapter lead me to believe that he suspects this is what Arianne wants as well. That's why he questions her so pointedly about whether she wants Aegon to be real, and then doubts the sincerity of her claim to want Quentyn to come home with his dragon queen.

I think I mentioned a lot of the above in a previous post, but I basically think the Arianne II chapter report of her rushing headlong into SE to meet Aegon just further backs up my theory on her motives.

[Ran]

It's quite obvious that Doran has sent Arianne to Storm's End to treat with Jon Connington and see what she can make of this supposed Aegon. She's not going there on her own initative. That's why they travel in such a small company, and why they have a ship waiting to take them across to the stormlands.

After all, the message wasn't addressed to her. It was addressed to Doran. His response is to send her. It was his decision.

[Ser Wun Wun]

It's quite obvious that Doran has sent Arianne to Storm's End to treat with Jon Connington and see what she can make of this supposed Aegon. She's not going there on her own initative. That's why they travel in such a small company, and why they have a ship waiting to take them across to the stormlands.

After all, the message wasn't addressed to her. It was addressed to Doran. His response is to send her. It was his decision.

I wouldn't say it is too obvious. After all, if it is Doran's direct order for Arianne to go to SE to meet with them, why is Daemon urging her not to go? He took her as far as Griffin's Roost, why tell her to hold back at that point?

Also, one of the reports of Arianne II says that she traveled with a lot of guards, so I suspect she may have enlarged her party at some point after the sample chapter once she got out of Dorne itself (and why not? the Stormlands are a war zone). And while I do not doubt Doran wanted her to meet with Aegon and JC, I don't think he wanted her to do it under those circumstances. Going into the heart of their army where her sworn swords cannot protect her is not quite what he envisioned, which is why Daemon urges her not to do it imo.

[Ran]

Ah, you're speaking of the second chapter, not the first. Yes, the partial reports suggest that Daemon thinks she should wait, but that's because they've heard more and he feels uneasy.

But it's clear in this chapter that it's Doran that sends them to the stormlands, yes? She's not being impetuous.

Is she being impetuous by not listening to Daemon? Is she putting them "in Connington's power" by going to Storm's End? Well... how much more "in his power" can they get? There's seven of them, and they're going into the territory Aegon and Connington have invaded and are taking control of. By default, they're in his power anyways. I don't see much difference here, unless she's supposed to just give up the whole mission and basically not resolve anything as to whether they can trust Connington or not.

I don't think she has "lots of guards". I suspect she has seven people, just as she does at the end of this chapter.

In any case, I don't see any evidence that Doran wasn't intending for them to go meet Connington at Griffon's Roost. Trebla's report indicates that that was the plan. The problem develops when he's not actually there, and has marched on Storm's End, and has managed to take it... but a Tyrell army is now marching as well. Basically, Daemon's concern isn't being in Connington's power -- they already are at Mistwood, which the Golden Company hold -- but that there seems to be a battle brewing and warzones are dangerous.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

What better way for Dorne to enter the war than to have Arianne and her contingent caught in the crossfire and killed by Tyrell troops. Would Connington be devious enough to kill Arianne and place the blame on Reach soldiers?

[Ran]

Don't think that's the sort of man Jon Connington is.

Someone else, like Homeless Harry Strickland? Maybe.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Basically, Daemon's concern isn't being in Connington's power -- they already are at Mistwood, which the Golden Company hold -- but that there seems to be a battle brewing and warzones are dangerous.

Ah, OK, that makes sense. I glossed over that part about the Tyrell army marching for some reason. I was actually focusing more on Dragons Dancing's report b/c it seemed to have the most detail, but his doesn't mention the Tyrell army. His is the one that does literally say she has "lots of guards" though. I'll take your word that that is wrong.

EDIT: Didn't Mace Tyrell say in the ADWD epilogue that he and his army wouldn't march until his daughters trial was over with? So either with this timeline the trial is over, or the taking of SE just changed matters and they decided they couldn't wait until after Marg's trial to deal with Aegon.

If the latter, the implications are pretty interesting. It would mean that Marg was left in the city with Cersei and Robert Strong without an army to back her (though she still had guards I'm sure). The likelihood of her death just skyrockets if this is the case, as well as Cersei's chances of turning the tables on everyone. Very interesting to think about.

[Alia of the knife]

Just got in from work, so catching up, and butting in,

A few other observations on the sample and a re-read of the sample.

- I actually hadn't pegged her for wanting to marry, (if that is indeed what she plans), to get a position such as Queen of Westeros, but have her own undisputed gig in Dorne.

Compare and Contrast with Dany:

I'm now coming back to Dany with a lot more sympathy because of Arianne.

I would point out that while it's understandable to have questions regarding what happened to Viserys, and she's disappointed, but in making assumptions about Dany, shes a bit of a hypocrite.

Shes almost a decade older than Dany, and yet she has been making such mistakes that she may as well be the same age.

I don't know what she's been doing the last ten years, (or I actually think I do), but it doesn't seem as though she was focusing on "duty." Now, in retrospect it seems as though she felt entitled to have that power, thinking bitter thoughts about Quentyn.

Agreed again on that she's projecting onto Dany her own guilt. It's also ironic that Dany thinks of a Princess of Dorne waiting for Viserys rather favorably and complimentary, unlike how Arianne is thinking about her.

Okay, butting out and going to bed.

[Ran]

She doesn't make any assumptions about her. It's all "perhaps this, or perhaps that" and "How do we know she'll be this or she'll be that"? It's uncertainty. That's not an assumption, that's simply not being able to assume anything.

[Alia of the knife]

She doesn't make any assumptions about her. It's all "perhaps this, or perhaps that" and "How do we know she'll be this or she'll be that"? It's uncertainty. That's not an assumption, that's simply not being able to assume anything.

Thats true, but I think you definitely get the feeling that Arianne is coming to certain conclusions about Dany, perhaps inspired and driven by her own behaviors and motivations.

I think we'll get a clearer picture when Quentyns death becomes known and if they get the truth, as to how she handles Dany.

An example of how it could go is with Dany herself when Selmy tried to tell her of Neds attempt at defending her when everyone else wanted to kill her, but Dany still referred to Ned as the Usurpers Dog.

She just let the facts go over her head because she wanted to believe a certain narrative, and the facts didn't fit that template.

[sifth]

Thats true, but I think you definitely get the feeling that Arianne is coming to certain conclusions about Dany, perhaps inspired and driven by her own behaviors and motivations.

I think we'll get a clearer picture when Quentyns death becomes known and if they get the truth, as to how she handles Dany.

An example of how it could go is with Dany herself when Selmy tried to tell her of Neds attempt at defending her when everyone else wanted to kill her, but Dany still referred to Ned as the Usurpers Dog.

She just let the facts go over her head because she wanted to believe a certain narrative, and the facts didn't fit that template.

she allowed her husband to kill her older brother in one of the most horrible ways imaginable.This man also happened to be the person Arianne would one day marry and the rightful king of Westeros. That's all Arianne knows of Danny and Viserys and from that little bit of information it doesn't paint a very bright picture for Danny.

sometimes we as the readers must always remember that many of these characters have a very limited amount of information about some of the characters and that goes almost double in Danny's case since she's on the other side of the world

[Alia of the knife]

she allowed her husband to kill her older brother in one of the most horrible ways imaginable.This man also happened to be the person Arianne would one day marry and the rightful king of Westeros. That's all Arianne knows of Danny and Viserys and from that little bit of information it doesn't paint a very bright picture for Danny.

sometimes we as the readers must always remember that many of these characters have a very limited amount of information about some of the characters and that goes almost double in Danny's case since she's on the other side of the world

Viserys came in drunk, with a weapon, violating "holy ground" and threatened to cut Danys unborn child out of her body, "Caligula-style."

She tried to calm Viserys down, but to no avail.

At that point, she couldn't have stopped Drogo even if she wanted to, because for one thing, it was in public. If Drogo had been inclined to any kind of mercy, which he was not, but if he was, Drogo couldn't have granted it because it was so public and he would look weak.

There are a lot of things I fault Dany for, this situation Viserys brought on himself.

Besides, he'd abused her her whole life, and contemplated raping her, a very different upbringing than Arianne had, so if there was a part of her not sorry to him go, I wouldn't blame her.

I am also aware that the it's how theme impacts the characters rather than the Reader, but every Writer knows when they start writing that they have to start off with what they know, and thats real life.

If in real life and on the job, I thought the worst of questionable situations without getting the right answers first, and then act upon them, I would be fired and friendless.

So, as a Reader, I ask myself why Arianne is willing to immediately think the worst about the situation between Dany and Viserys without asking questions. Were they so out of touch they never heard the rumors that Viserys started displaying signs of madness since a young boy?

Princess Elia wouldn't have mentioned that to her Brothers while living at KL?

And in retrospect, if Arianne would bother to ask those questions, she would find out what Viserys was like.

All of this is one component to the possiblilities, and I could certainly be wrong, but as Readers we have to figure out whether Ariannes thoughts, (by Martin), are a foreshadowing of Aegons idenity, of Dany possibly being mad, or if it's pointing us, (again by Martin), to the fact that Arianne is not going to be a force for good in this story,

[Ser Wun Wun]

She doesn't make any assumptions about her. It's all "perhaps this, or perhaps that" and "How do we know she'll be this or she'll be that"? It's uncertainty. That's not an assumption, that's simply not being able to assume anything.

Notice in her discussion with Daemon she is the one taking an optimistic position regarding Aegon, saying 'but if he is real...' while Daemon is the one doubting his legitimacy, believing that he is just some fraud sellsword. Contrast this with their discussion regarding Dany, where it is Daemon taking an optimistic view, saying that maybe Viserys died and it wasn't Dany's fault, while Arianne counters with 'she is the mad king's daughter' and then ponders to herself that maybe Dany had him murdered so she wouldn't be stuck 'living as a savage and smelling like a horse'.

I find the positions Arianne takes in these "what if" conversations very telling, personally. It is a sign that she is already predisposed to view Dany in a negative way, and Aegon in a positive one. And this is before the news of Quentyn's death even reaches her, so we can't chalk it up to that. The only reason for it that I can see is that Arianne does wish the Viserys marriage had gone through, and she therefore harbors some resentment towards Dany for letting (Arianne's own words) her husband murder him. She never knew Viserys, so the only reason I can see for her to be upset over his death is that the idea of being Queen appeals to her, and his death took that possibility away.

[sifth]

Viserys came in drunk, with a weapon, violating "holy ground" and threatened to cut Danys unborn child out of her body, "Caligula-style."

She tried to calm Viserys down, but to no avail.

At that point, she couldn't have stopped Drogo even if she wanted to, because for one thing, it was in public. If Drogo had been inclined to any kind of mercy, which he was not, but if he was, Drogo couldn't have granted it because it was so public and he would look weak.

There are a lot of things I fault Dany for, this situation Viserys brought on himself.

Besides, he'd abused her her whole life, and contemplated raping her, a very different upbringing than Arianne had, so if there was a part of her not sorry to him go, I wouldn't blame her.

I am also aware that the it's how theme impacts the characters rather than the Reader, but every Writer knows when they start writing that they have to start off with what they know, and thats real life.

If in real life and on the job, I thought the worst of questionable situations without getting the right answers first, and then act upon them, I would be fired.

So, as a Reader, I ask myself why Arianne is willing to immediately think the worst about the situation between Dany and Viserys without asking questions. Were they so out of touch they never heard the rumors that Viserys started displaying signs of madness since a young boy?

Princess Elia wouldn't have mentioned that to her Brothers while living at KL?

And in retrospect, if Arianne would bother to ask those questions, she would find out what Viserys was like.

All of this is one component to the possiblilities, and I could certainly be wrong, but as Readers we have to figure out whether Ariannes thoughts, (by Martin), are a foreshadowing of Aegons idenity, and of Dany possibly being mad, or if it's pointing us, (again by Martin), to the fact that Arianne is not going to be a force for good in this story, and possibly, all the above.

Because she doesn't know any of the details you just posted above and from the small amount of info she does know it looks like Danny killed her older brother to giver herself a better claim to the throne. I can't fault anyone for putting that conclusion together, unless they were their to witness what actually happened. Danny being the child of a nut job king doesn't help her case either

remember she doesn't know what Viserys was like and has no way of getting any information on the man he grew up to be

[The Night's Prince]

LOL the butthurt is strong with this reveal that Darkstar is still prominent and lurking. The sheer joy it brings me.

[Bushido]

I just hope Arianne becomes our only POV in Jon Connington and Ageon's camp. Jon Connington's POV seemed very forced to me and I think even GRRM admitted that he originally was planning to keep Tyrion in their camp and evern wrote a version of the chapter in which the Golden Company swears to sever Ageon from Tyrion's POV.

Link??

[Jon AS]

Notice in her discussion with Daemon she is the one taking an optimistic position regarding Aegon, saying 'but if he is real...' while Daemon is the one doubting his legitimacy, believing that he is just some fraud sellsword. Contrast this with their discussion regarding Dany, where it is Daemon taking an optimistic view, saying that maybe Viserys died and it wasn't Dany's fault, while Arianne counters with 'she is the mad king's daughter' and then ponders to herself that maybe Dany had him murdered so she wouldn't be stuck 'living as a savage and smelling like a horse'.

If you sum up what she knows abut Aegon and Dany, it wouldn't be very surprising if she was hoping that Aegon was the real deal.

Consider:

-Dany, daughter of Mad King Aerys, let her own brother (Arianne's fiancé) get killed by her husband (Arianne knows nothing about the circumstances, from the outside and with just the bare bones information this looks a lot like Drogo killing Viserys to remove him from the line of succession); now she's sacked a bunch of cities in Essos, using slave soldiers and dragons (after her husband, too, has died...)

-Aegon on the other hand not only has the advantage of having non-crazy parents (one of them being Arianne's aunt) and not having killed any relatives (admittedly he has the advantage that he's already first in line for the throne here), he's actively fighting the Lannister/Tyrell alliance in the Stormlands (which technically supports the "Baratheon" dynasty) and asking for Dorne's help

And on a personal level, Arianne is probably right that Doran would be delighted to hear that Elia's son is in fact alive.

I wouldn't try to judge Arianne's actions vis-a-vis Aegon and Connington before she's actually done what her father asked her to do and met them. Trying to get to Storm's End as quickly as possible might be the best thing to do: if Aegon is who he says he is, Doran will want to support him, and preferably as quickly as possible, else he might get killed by the Tyrells before Dorne's armies can intervene.

I find the positions Arianne takes in these "what if" conversations very telling, personally. It is a sign that she is already predisposed to view Dany in a negative way, and Aegon in a positive one. And this is before the news of Quentyn's death even reaches her, so we can't chalk it up to that. The only reason for it that I can see is that Arianne does wish the Viserys marriage had gone through, and she therefore harbors some resentment towards Dany for letting (Arianne's own words) her husband murder him. She never knew Viserys, so the only reason I can see for her to be upset over his death is that the idea of being Queen appeals to her, and his death took that possibility away.

I think there's a lot of confused feelings on Arianne's part when it comes to Quentyn, Dany and Viserys. She's resented her brother for a long time, thinking he was being groomed to usurp her inheritance while she was being pushed aside and married off to some aging, minor lord. She now learns that that was pretty far from what her father intended, and thus feels guilty over the feelings she's harbored.

So when she looks at Dany's actions, she views them through the lense of her own feelings and experiences, just as every other POV character does. Just a few months ago she thought that her brother was actively working on removing her from the line of succession and trying to take her own precautions against that. It's not difficult to see why she'd not rule out the possibility that Dany engineered her brother's death: it's basically what she feared Quentyn was about to do to her. So Viserys is the person she identifies with in that scenario, and through their betrothal he's also proof of the fact that her father had not in fact rejected her, as she'd thought.

On the other hand, circumstances have conspired in such a way that Quentyn gets the more important role in Doran's plans. If he succeeds, he'll be king and Arianne subservient to him, just as she'd feared for so long would be the case if he became Prince of Dorne in her place. She doesn't have to be particularly ambitious to have mixed feelings on that, particularly since she's not close to her brother.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I would love to see both Dany and Arianne be more like Queen Elizabeth Tudor and cut all romantic ties to men until the fighting is done. Neither appear capable of keeping their romantic trysts from clouding their judgment. Ser Barristan can't even execute his plans for defending Meereen b/c of Dharrio and Arianne's primary tactic for negotiation is seduction. Women using their sex to control men has failed time and again (see Cleopatra).