A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[Opisthokont]

Maybe distracting the guards was another thing that Alivia took care of?

[Poobah]

She actually says its unfair that rand should be dying while the other one grows stronger

Whoops. I think you're right actually. Memories from bleary 12 hour reading sessions :(

[Emo Jon Snow]

Highlights from Tor Chat with Sanderson, some questions get answered, some do not.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/01/brandon-sandersons-wheel-of-time-answers-from-torchat

[awesome possum]

Highlights from Tor Chat with Sanderson, some questions get answered, some do not.

http://www.tor.com/b...rs-from-torchat

I'm going to take exception with this part:

"Rand doesn’t know the Song"

As a giant heap of BULLSHIT. If Rand doesn't know the song, then how is it that he's freaking singing in Tuon's garden and as he's singing the garden comes back to life.

And this:

To Jordan, RAFO didn’t always mean he was going to give the readers an answer. Rather, that he wanted readers to consider it on their own.

Wow, Robert Jordan was a douchebag. So instead of "Read and Find Out" what he meant all these years was, "Think About It and If You Don't Figure It Out Too Bad." I guess TAIAIYDFIOTB doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Brendan Moody]

If you read the actual exchange that's summarizing, Sanderson was saying what he's said before, that "the Song" as the Tinkers conceive it never existed, even though what Rand knows is part of the origin of that mythic and philosophical concept.

I must say, it's painfully amusing to read through the transcript and see Sanderson suggesting that the book was sooooooo fast-paced that he couldn't do this, that, and the other thing. Lots of repetitive Trolloc-killing action does not equal fast-paced, guy.

[awesome possum]

If you read the actual exchange that's summarizing, Sanderson was saying what he's said before, that "the Song" as the Tinkers conceive it never existed, even though what Rand knows is part of the origin of that mythic and philosophical concept.

I still think it's a bit of a cop-out but oh well.

[Brendan Moody]

Jordan had clarified in 1999 that "the Song" was a mystic notion more than a literal thing. The search for the Song is an underpinning of a particular way of life, not a plot point. I don't think Jordan ever meant "will the Tinkers find the Song?" as a to-be-solved mystery of the series, any more than "where are the Entwives?" was a to-be-solved mystery of The Lord of the Rings.

[Frey Pie]

Highlights from Tor Chat with Sanderson, some questions get answered, some do not.

http://www.tor.com/b...rs-from-torchat

Very interesting. Clears up a nice bit really in my opinion. Really looking forward to River of Souls now

Also, the fact that BS can answer neither who Nakomi is, or how Rand lights his pipe says to me their connected-Avatars of the Creator whi can impose their will TAR style on the real world

[peterbound]

Jordan had clarified in 1999 that "the Song" was a mystic notion more than a literal thing. The search for the Song is an underpinning of a particular way of life, not a plot point. I don't think Jordan ever meant "will the Tinkers find the Song?" as a to-be-solved mystery of the series, any more than "where are the Entwives?" was a to-be-solved mystery of The Lord of the Rings.

Pretty bold comparison.

[awesome possum]

Meh. In 1999 Jordan was between Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart, where he seemed to have lost control of the series. After that "RAFO" comment I can't but think Jordan was talking out of his ass a whole lot of the time.

I mean, the first thing we see with the Tinkers is Reyn asking Elyas if he found the song. Elyas explains to Perrin that the song is "why they travel," Elyas said, "or so they say. They're looking for a song. That's what the Mahdi seeks. They say they lost it during the Breaking of the World, and if they can find it again, the paradise of the Age of Legends will return." He ran his eye around the camp and snorted. "They don't even know what the song is; they claim they'll know it when they find it. They don't know how it's supposed to bring paradise, either, but they've been looking near to three thousand years, ever since the Breaking. I expect they'll be looking until the Wheel stops turning."

Then we see through Rand's vision the Tinkers and Ogier singing together to grow crops. And then Rand sings and brings a garden back to life after growing the one grove of trees at Merrilor. But it's just a philosophy.

I never expected it to be a major plot point, but what we got feels like a cop out in my opinion. YMMV.

[peterbound]

All reading those answers did, was make me hate the fucking 'Team Jordan' concept, and the idiotic decisions it made in terms of plot, and book release.

[Emo Jon Snow]

If you read the actual exchange that's summarizing, Sanderson was saying what he's said before, that "the Song" as the Tinkers conceive it never existed, even though what Rand knows is part of the origin of that mythic and philosophical concept.

I must say, it's painfully amusing to read through the transcript and see Sanderson suggesting that the book was sooooooo fast-paced that he couldn't do this, that, and the other thing. Lots of repetitive Trolloc-killing action does not equal fast-paced, guy.

Yeah the first couple hundred pages about the battle going great then the battle going bad then the battle went better than expected was rough. Also it was hard to get a grasp on the size of each army, we just always knew they were outnumbered.

Wow even more painful than that is the amount of people crying about the e-book release

I like the bit about the pipe lighting as open ended, sometimes I don't want all of the answers.

[Rhom]

I didn't know anything about that short story River of Souls. I will definitely have to read it.

I find it interesting that Jordan obviously left notes behind for that, but not for any of the other stories he had in mind.

[Brendan Moody]

"River of Souls" is a series of POV sequences that was deleted from A Memory of Light because Sanderson and "Team Jordan" felt its introduction of new concepts was a distraction and that it seemed more like Sanderson than Jordan. It's not something Jordan had conceived as a separate story.

[peterbound]

"River of Souls" is a series of POV sequences that was deleted from A Memory of Light because Sanderson and "Team Jordan" felt its introduction of new concepts was a distraction. It's not something Jordan had conceived as a separate story.

This entire book was a cluster fuck. The more I read about it, and the feeling it left me after I finished it, the more disappointed I am in the whole fucking lot of it.

I started reading these fucking things in 1997 on the way back from MEPS. I had to catch a greyhound back to my small ass home town in AZ. It was going to take 4 fucking hours to travel 100 miles, and I needed something to read. I stopped by a Waldenbooks (remember that shit?) next to the depot, and bought the thickest looking thing on the rack EOTW was it.

I loved it. Really really loved it. I was 17.

I guess that explains my love for it. I wasn't that well read in the SF/F worlds, and I was young. I thought it was the cat's ass. The older I got, and the more books i read (I read AGOT soon after EOTW) the more I started to realize that this fucking guy was losing control of his books, and that he didn't really have a grasp on where they are going. I kept telling myself, 'just get through the next book, it'll be better, it'll have some answers'. You know what. They never did. The books just became more of the same bullshit. Bad writing, immature dialogue, and poor interpersonal relationships. RAFO, he'd say. I remember being a member of WotMaina, and watching all the theories go down. I think most of the fans had the shit more worked out than RJ did.

This entire chapter of my life has been a waste. I'm glad I read the first book, but I wish that I could go back and tell myself, 'hey, enjoy this, but all the books after the fifth one are shit. Don't buy them. Also, don't think this is going to end in any way that is satisfactory to the story, or you personally.'

I can't see how anyone, with any self respect or taste, can say this was a good book, or a good ending. Or that the way the 'Team Jordan' handled the entire thing was anything less than a fucking debacle, and full of selfish ego tripping bullshit.

[Opisthokont]

Do full spoilers mean full spoilers for everything or just A Memory of Light? Just to be safe I'll use spoiler tags.

For those who don't know, River of Souls is about

Demandred.

[fionwe1987]

Meh. In 1999 Jordan was between Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart, where he seemed to have lost control of the series. After that "RAFO" comment I can't but think Jordan was talking out of his ass a whole lot of the time.

I mean, the first thing we see with the Tinkers is Reyn asking Elyas if he found the song. Elyas explains to Perrin that the song is "why they travel," Elyas said, "or so they say. They're looking for a song. That's what the Mahdi seeks. They say they lost it during the Breaking of the World, and if they can find it again, the paradise of the Age of Legends will return." He ran his eye around the camp and snorted. "They don't even know what the song is; they claim they'll know it when they find it. They don't know how it's supposed to bring paradise, either, but they've been looking near to three thousand years, ever since the Breaking. I expect they'll be looking until the Wheel stops turning."

Then we see through Rand's vision the Tinkers and Ogier singing together to grow crops. And then Rand sings and brings a garden back to life after growing the one grove of trees at Merrilor. But it's just a philosophy.

I never expected it to be a major plot point, but what we got feels like a cop out in my opinion. YMMV.

The point being made is that the songs of growing mutated into "The Song" in the Tinker's mind, and for 3000 years, this has been their quest, their reason for existing as they do. A very real, very practical, Talent became a myth and a legend of something vaster, and is entrenched so deep in their minds that anything that doesn't hold up to that myth is not going to be enough for the Tinkers. After all, the seed songs won't bring back the Age of Legends. They'll just do what they're supposed to.

Further, Rand sings a song Mat recognizes. Which makes it clear that its not the words of the song, or its tune, that's significant. Its the act of singing by someone who has the Voice. From the looks of it, in the AoL, only the Aiel had the Voice. And while the Aiel in the Waste are direct descendants, the Tinkers have intermarried and diluted their Aiel blood a lot. This probably explains Brandon's statement at a signing that if Rand went to them and sang the songs of growing, they'd thank him for singing a nice song and move on. Since they have no Talent to recognize what's special about his song, they just won't think these songs fulfill their quest.

The clues have been there, all along.

[Frey Pie]

The point being made is that the songs of growing mutated into "The Song" in the Tinker's mind, and for 3000 years, this has been their quest, their reason for existing as they do. A very real, very practical, Talent became a myth and a legend of something vaster, and is entrenched so deep in their minds that anything that doesn't hold up to that myth is not going to be enough for the Tinkers. After all, the seed songs won't bring back the Age of Legends. They'll just do what they're supposed to.

Further, Rand sings a song Mat recognizes. Which makes it clear that its not the words of the song, or its tune, that's significant. Its the act of singing by someone who has the Voice. From the looks of it, in the AoL, only the Aiel had the Voice. And while the Aiel in the Waste are direct descendants, the Tinkers have intermarried and diluted their Aiel blood a lot. This probably explains Brandon's statement at a signing that if Rand went to them and sang the songs of growing, they'd thank him for singing a nice song and move on. Since they have no Talent to recognize what's special about his song, they just won't think these songs fulfill their quest.

The clues have been there, all along.

Spot on i think Fionwe

[peterbound]

The point being made is that the songs of growing mutated into "The Song" in the Tinker's mind, and for 3000 years, this has been their quest, their reason for existing as they do. A very real, very practical, Talent became a myth and a legend of something vaster, and is entrenched so deep in their minds that anything that doesn't hold up to that myth is not going to be enough for the Tinkers. After all, the seed songs won't bring back the Age of Legends. They'll just do what they're supposed to.

Further, Rand sings a song Mat recognizes. Which makes it clear that its not the words of the song, or its tune, that's significant. Its the act of singing by someone who has the Voice. From the looks of it, in the AoL, only the Aiel had the Voice. And while the Aiel in the Waste are direct descendants, the Tinkers have intermarried and diluted their Aiel blood a lot. This probably explains Brandon's statement at a signing that if Rand went to them and sang the songs of growing, they'd thank him for singing a nice song and move on. Since they have no Talent to recognize what's special about his song, they just won't think these songs fulfill their quest.

The clues have been there, all along.

Or, which is most likely the case, they lost track of this detail, and fucked it up. You give these guys a lot of credit, and I don't think it's earned.

[fionwe1987]

Or, which is most likely the case, they lost track of this detail, and fucked it up. You give these guys a lot of credit, and I don't think it's earned.

I give them just the right amount of credit. Its hardly surprising that things got lost after RJ's passing. He had extensive notes that were very well categorized, but Brandon of course didn't read them all (their combined wordcount exceeds the wordcount of the series by far). He had to go ask Maria, who wouldn't always find it. By all accounts RJ had a prodigious memory, and his loss mean a loss of attention to detail.

All that said, we've always known there was no "Song". We knew the Tinkers had it wrong. There was just hope that they could perhaps learn the songs of growing, and be happy with it. That's the only part that Brandon has confirmed as impossible. And he has stated that the notes specifically say this, that the Tinkers won't ever get the Song. I don't quite see what he gets by lying about that, since he could equally lie that they will get to using the seed songs in the future, and no one would contradict him.