Relative atrocities

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Justifiable:

1. Cat killing Jinglebell. She was far beyond the point of any common sense there. Watching Dacey Mormont get murdered, watching how Roose Bolton killed her son, who had been struck with arrows before and just the whole situation.

2. Ned killing the Night Watch deserter. He deserted the Night's Watch, desertion is punishable by death and that is exactly what Lord Eddard Stark did. No one can expect him to invite him for a cup of tea and to tell about all those monsters and stuff. He was a deserter, simple as that.

3. MMD's behavior towards Drogo. She explained it herself, really, so no need to do that here. And well, he wasn't really dead, after all, Daenerys murdered her husband herself.

4. Robb Stark killing Rickard Karstark. They needed to get punished, they were endangering Robb's cause by murdering Lannister hostages. No one would ever try to do such a thing again.

Unjustifiable:

1. Tywin sending Gregor Clegane to ravage the Riverlands. The heck, Tywin. Or his gang-rape of Tysha. I've heard some people say here that was in one way or the other ''good punishment'' but don't get me started on that please.

2. Anything Gregor Clegane or Ramsay Snow have done.

3. Tyrion being so... angry with the whole of the Vale. Arming the Mountain Clans for example. I can understand his hatred for Lysa, but that doesn't mean the whole Vale should get punished for that.

4. Daenerys torturing people and/or crucifying them. Come on, Daenerys. It's not because I really dislike you, it's just the fact that it is plainly wrong.

I more or less agree with this. Catelyn killing Jinglebell is the hardest to look at, but I think you could plead insanity here. There's also the very important lesson: "Never take a hostage you aren't prepared to kill."

I also have to side-eye the OP referring to Robb breaking a marriage contract as "an atrocity." :shocked:

[Fearsedge]

I more or less agree with this. Catelyn killing Jinglebell is the hardest to look at, but I think you could plead insanity here. There's also the very important lesson: "Never take a hostage you aren't prepared to kill."

I also have to side-eye the OP referring to Robb breaking a marriage contract as "an atrocity." :shocked:

I wrote it was a joke right after that. : )

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I wrote it was a joke right after that. : )

Fair enough.

[Fearsedge]

I was trying to make fun of people who Hate a character for trivial reasons.

[Theda Baratheon]

In all fairness to Catelyn, she was insane by this point. Not only with grief but with actual hysteria. So although the act was horrific, I can't hate her (not even a tiny, tiny, tiny bit) for it.

[Fearsedge]

This kind of response was the reason I had originally suggested the modification from "justified" to "things you find personally sympathetic," since it unambiguously refers to personal sympathy rather than any sort of "rightness" to argue over.

Cat's behavior is morally wrong. Yet, many of us sympathize with her in this moment of unfathomable sorrow even though it's objectively wrong to kill an innocent.

I dI'd add some different words to describe it, like excusable or sympathetic. I jjust didn't remove justified.

[Fearsedge]

This kind of response was the reason I had originally suggested the modification from "justified" to "things you find personally sympathetic," since it unambiguously refers to personal sympathy rather than any sort of "rightness" to argue over.

Cat's behavior is morally wrong. Yet, many of us sympathize with her in this moment of unfathomable sorrow even though it's objectively wrong to kill an innocent.

Changed to "forgivable" to avoid confusion.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Cat wasn't at her best at the moment. She probably did it out of grief for the murder or her son, not direct revenge. An act of madness.

Justifiable, or reasonable or whatever you want to call it :P

- Stannis considering (he never truly wanted, it was a sacrifice) burning Edric Storm.

Unjustifiable:

-Tyrells killing Joffrey: Need to say why?

- Jaime killing Aerys: Again, need to explain?

Actually, Stannis considering killing Edric has the same base as Jaime - allegedly - killing Aerys. Stannis needed one person dead to save millions, while Jaime killed Aerys to save the city to get burnt.

In the same way, the Tyrells knew Joffrey was in the way to get as mad as Aerys and they were marrying one of them to him, knowing what kind of cruelty he was able to do, even if the victim was the woman he was meant to marry. Being the King, there was not much they could have done if he actually hurt Margaery.

[Daphne23]

I see what Theon and Jaime did as similar. They both attempt to or succeed in killing innocent child(ren). I just find Jaime to be more sympathetic because he is protecting more than himself. It doesn't mean either of them are right in what they did, but Jaime is slightly more sympathetic here. To me, anyway.

Yes, you're right; Jaime is, arguably, protecting both himself and Cersei, whereas Theon is only protecting himself. I guess what makes the two actions morally equivalent to me is that I struggle to see what else Theon could have done, other than run away and forfeit everything, whereas I think Jaime had a much larger number of options open to him (try to frighten Bran into silence, give Bran a false explanation (he's seven and doesn't really understand what he's seeing), at the more extreme end, run away into exile with Cersei and the children etc.) Obviously, the necessity of Theon's action doesn't make it justifiable, but to me, it makes it more understandable and balances out the mitigating factor on Jaime's side. Although, one could also argue that Jaime's interests and Cersei's are so intertwined at this point that his action can hardly be regarded as unselfishly protective; again, I think reading 'The things I do for love' as a straightforward 'I have to push you out of the window to protect Cersei/myself/our children' is a little misleading. I think that Jaime is reflecting here on all the things he has done in the past, and will do in the future, to be with Cersei. It's particularly telling that the other thing he does before pushing Bran is to ask him his age; as he obviously knows that Bran is very young, it's as if he is underlining, to himself, the true awfulness of the act he is performing and yet does it anyway.

[Silverin]

Tyrion's "crimes":

What he does to the Antler Men is cruel punishment for sure but it isn't a crime, since they themselves are technically criminals, and it's certainly understandable as a deterrent from future treason.

1. The Antler Men were actually not criminals, but innocents who were framed by Varys. They had a huge debt to the Throne, but because of their death, that money cannot be collected anymore. It was done to further bankrupt the Throne.

2. tyrion withouth any trial, any investigation, any questioning sentenced them to die, and gave them to Joff to brutally murder them.

[mormont]

Actually, Stannis considering killing Edric has the same base as Jaime - allegedly - killing Aerys. Stannis needed one person dead to save millions, while Jaime killed Aerys to save the city to get burnt.

The very considerable difference being that in the Jaime/Aerys case, the one who had to die was the one who was going to directly and intentionally cause the deaths that were prevented: whereas in the Stannis/Edric case, the one who was to die was a complete innocent. (Also, of course, Jaime had a far sounder basis for believing that one death would in fact prevent a larger loss of life.)

[SeanF]

Tyrion Killing nurse

Forgivable: Nurse wanted to feed tyrion to lions. His behavious wasnt very nice too. A lannister had to pay his debts.

Unforgivable: Nurse was already dying and Tyrion on verge of escape. It was just cold blooded murder.

It's another example of Tyrion's willingness to murder people out of revenge, but Nurse was such a bastard that I'm willing to forgive him for this.

[SeanF]

And, no, no one in their right mind would think any woman would subject herself to this treatment willingly.

Sadly they do, even in our modern times. You'd be surprised at what women in the sex-trade will consent to willingly. Hell you'd be shocked at what women in the porn industry consent to willingly.

Well, I have watched "Two Girls, One Cup" on the internet.

Seriously, though, Tysha was bleeding as a result of what was done to her. I think Tyrion could have worked out that she wasn't happy with what was happening (although I think that Tywin takes the vast majority of the blame for what happened).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Unjustifiable

Everything Dany does (since she has already said:

"I'm just a little girl that knows nothing of….”

but also

"I am khaleesi, heir to the Seven Kingdoms, the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "It is not for you to tell me what I cannot do."

"I am the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach me lessons.”

)

Cat: “It should have been you” (I don't care about her insomnia or anything.) This quote shows me that she is a terrible mother and a terrible human being. Something that takes its final form with her later actions: a) abandoning Bran & Rickon & b ) condemning Robb to death by making a deal with Frey(?!).

All Gregor & Ramsay

[Theda Baratheon]

~

[Castel]

I was trying to make fun of people who Hate a character for trivial reasons.

Breaking a marriage contract isn't trivial. It's more or less the equivalent of breaking a treaty after you got what you wanted. See, Robb is not a just man, he's the State, such actions are beneath him. Completely unjustifiable in any real sense to me. It can be rationalized to me, but I haven't seen a convincing justification

[Theda Baratheon]

Certainly in the world of ASOIAF and the medieval world a marriage contract is no small thing.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The very considerable difference being that in the Jaime/Aerys case, the one who had to die was the one who was going to directly and intentionally cause the deaths that were prevented: whereas in the Stannis/Edric case, the one who was to die was a complete innocent. (Also, of course, Jaime had a far sounder basis for believing that one death would in fact prevent a larger loss of life.)

They both acted based on "if"s. Stannis believed Mel's words that sacrificing Edric would help a bigger good and Jaime, even for a moment, thought that killing the Mad King would save people from getting burnt. As pointed out in many other threads, he could have simply knocked down unconscious.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Breaking a marriage contract isn't trivial. It's more or less the equivalent of breaking a treaty after you got what you wanted. See, Robb is not a just man, he's the State, such actions are beneath him. Completely unjustifiable in any real sense to me. It can be rationalized to me, but I haven't seen a convincing justification

The only justification is ''her honor'' and ''his honor'' (as a King). But since they were enemies anyway, and nobody will die from a one-night-stand (especially not if you're a King), those justifications are pretty weak.

[Tetrarch42]

I'm glad to see some who has the same veiw as me on this, I actually posted something very similar in the "is Jaime evil" thread yesterday. I also saw something else that i didnt think of at the time that someone else mentioned. If Jaime didn' push Bran out of the window, it could of caused a war with the Lanisters and the crown once Rob starts lopping off heads. which would of ended with thousands dead.

It was a bad thing to do, but I think its hard to say that you wouldnt have done the same.

I don't buy the 'looking out for Cersei and the kids" excuse. Because his act placed his children in danger in the first place. If it was just a binary choice, like Kill 1(Bran): Kill 3 (Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen) then I would accept it. But if his children's lives were important to him, he wouldn;t have placed them at risk by bagning Cersei (in a tower in Winterfell no less) so I'm lead to believe that his attempted murder of Bran was at least mostly motivated by self interest, and not by an attempt to protect his kids.