Actual evidence of Sansa "playing the game?"

[Ice Turtle]

As a Sansa fan myself, i have to say there's some true here, "lies and arbor gold" doesn't mean she's a bad person at all, but a lie can be used for good as well, like calming womens during a battle with a blatant lie IS manipulating, but unlike LF, she lie for good cause/reasons

If she didn't lie about Sweetrobin not bleeding from sweetsleep, I agree that her causes were good so far, but that was not the question.

[Runaway Penguin]

Then there is also possibility of Sansa, having uderstood The Game, will smash the board ;)

[Little Wing]

Then there is also possibility of Sansa, having uderstood The Game, will smash the board ;)

But these are all projections of what she might do/be in the future. The OP is about actual evidence of playing the game, not readers' projections.

[butterbumps!]

I don't think Sansa's sense of empathy is any more acute than a normal person's. It just might seem that way when contrasted against characters like Littlefinger and Joffrey.

I think a good argument can be made for this based on Sansa's interactions with a variety of people compared to how everyone else interacts with that same list of people: Sandor, Sweet Robin, Lollys stand out to this end, but there's also the way she thinks of Dontos, her strong feelings of camaraderie with Marg, befriending Randa, her thoughts of Mya, etc. She thinks about people differently than nearly every other POV (I actually think she and Jon have some similar ways of thinking about people).

But I don't quite understand how everyone's using "manipulation." "Manipulation" or influence is a critical aspect of playing the game, so this would mean that she is an effective player (or will be). Sansa does do this, but it feels slightly inaccurate to me given the negative connotations of this, because she's not exploiting people. I just wasn't sure if "manipulation" is being used in it's most denotative sense of orchestrating something as opposed to the more nefarious connotations.

[Theda Baratheon]

OK I was wrong. lol.

[Greywolf2375]

When she and LF are walking through the process of how he worked the room in the Eyrie and then how Harry the Heir comes into his own - she may not be the one doing that planning but the fact that she was able to see and understand it shows she is learning how to play the game and that she can play the game.

[butterbumps!]

OK I was wrong. lol.

I don't think you were wrong. "Manipulate" has come to be laden with loaded meanings beyond simply "handling something with dexterity." Sansa does orchestrate things and influences situations, which is technically "manipulation," but it's come to mean something more diabolical in conversation usually. It makes sense why you reacted against it.

I do find Sansa's manipulation very interesting, though, because she's someone who can sense how to manipulate people, but doesn't objectify them the way a LF or Varys would.

[Mladen]

Sansa isn`t player yet, and in this sentence YET is the key word. She has shown both empatic and pollitical side of her personality. She demonstrates it whenever there is need for both compassion and outsmarting people (Dontos, SR). Possibly she will never be match to Varys(honestly who is match to him?), but she sure has potential to be match to Cersei, QOT, Arianne or Dany.

[VaramyrSixchins]

I think Sansa can "manipulate situations," though I don't believe that said manipulation is necessarily bad; she is able to maintain order in potentially chaotic situations like the Blackwater and the riot by "manipulating" other's be5havior. It's not nefarious, and the word "manipulating" has slightly wrong connotations for this.

Where I see Sansa's potential is in the fact that she has a very good observation of behavior and character, and further, that she is able to understand their fears and motivations. She was the only one who empathized with Lollys, and was singularly able to coach her into crossing the bridge she was so afraid of. The same with Sweet Robin in the Eyrie. Sansa can see a bigger picture, understand what needs to be done, and is able to "manipulate" people's behavior in service to something else. This is precisely what happens in "the game."

The critical difference for me is that Sansa is foremost empathetic. She doesn't exploit people or bend them like objects. She truly does empathize with them, and wants the most humane outcome. She's more like a therapist than a cold "player," but her ability to connect with people does give her a strong advantage in terms of "the game."

Not to be THAT guy, but Lollys actually got dragged across the bridge by her sister. Sansa tried to quietly speak to her, but Lollys was pretty vehemently refusing to budge for ANYBODY. But your point is taken. She doesn't sneer or make a snide remark or thought about Lollys's wits, like other characters would.

I don't necessarily find empathy to be a flaw in a person, especially one in Sansa's posish. Hell, it's crucial to the underpinnings of "courtesy armor".

[PureGold]

I don't think she's "playing" yet but she is learning. In GOT she was for the most part a flighty airhead but in subsequent books she kept getting better and better IMO. She conspires with Dontos in CoK. She conspires with the Tyrells in ASOS and even though she's in league with them she never tells them about the previous plan she had with Dontos (though the reverse wasn't true sadly).

She goes along with LF's frame up of Marillion for the murder of Lyssa Arynn. She is actively living under a false identity and being witness and understanding the manipulations of LF with regards to the Lords Declarant. She figured out that Lynn Cobray was in league with LF all along. She recognized that LF was tying Lord Royce's fortunes to his own and why.

Not a player but she is MUCH better than Ned and Cat were. And she's become quite the co-conspirator. All making fascinating reading as far as I'm concerned. I can't wait to see what's next for her.

[Neumond]

I subscribe PureGolds Post.

She isn`t a player and i don´t get this empath thing either. If I remember correctly, Arya was able to see through the lannisters much better than Sansa did. But Sansa is indeed learning.

On a reread of GOT I was struck by the scene when she and Septa came from the court, where her father was dealing with the "lannister-problem".

She mourned that her father should have send Ser Loras. LF heard this, came to her and asked her why.

Her reply was some childish, "he is such a beautiful knight"-stuff. And LF startet to teach her in this very moment. (I don´t remember the exact wording...)

One of the best reread moments for me ;). And as PureGold said, later in the Eyrie she began to see through such things on her own and has obviously learned something. This raised my Interest in her, because I expect her to play some future role in the game. But not yet as others already pointed out.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

There is the Big Game and within it there are other smaller games. Not everyone can be a player of the big game as it requires not only understanding the "rules" but also having some means to use: I may know that someone will do something for gold, but I can't use him if I don't have any gold...

An examble of a smaller game is what Bronn has been playing. In the Game of Thrones he is only a humble pown but understanding his role has pushed his own goals (very small ones in comparison to the big players) far enough.

Sansa so far has been a winner in the smallest of games, the game of survival. She has shown promise in the art of manipulation but she is only a beginner (Joff and Sweetrobin are very easy to manipulate). She is just starting to learn the basics of the big game. And so far, she is not in a position to use the most important means that she owns (her name, her claim, the secrets she knows). She has potential though.

For now she definitely is not a player because she lacks the most important thing: her own -long or medium term- agenda. Her goal is to survive and to avoid being used in ways she doesn't want to, if she can. It will be an interesting read to see how she will form her own goals and push for them.

I don't think that she will become a player in the Game of Thrones the way Littlefinger is (I never wanted to play). I think she will play only enough to escape the "board" and in doing so (I hope that) she will destroy Littlefinger. But that's only my speculation.

By the way (and not too important)

1. Manipulation does have a negative connotation. It is not simply "handling something with dexterity", it includes the use of "opaque" means. Of course "opaque" does not necessarily equal "immoral", and sometimes manipulation can be used for a good cause, but I would prefer persuasion instead...

2. Sansa's attitude during the Blackwater battle is not IMO a manifestation of her manipulative talents, but rather a demonstration of her power to rise to the occasion and perform a queenly duty (in contrast to Cersei who "breaks").

*spelling*

[Waylin Stark]

She's not an actual player yet. She's still learning. My worries are that we won't see her as the accomplished politician we want because that would actually take years.

[franko99]

Sansa isn`t player yet, and in this sentence YET is the key word. She has shown both empatic and pollitical side of her personality. She demonstrates it whenever there is need for both compassion and outsmarting people (Dontos, SR). Possibly she will never be match to Varys(honestly who is match to him?), but she sure has potential to be match to Cersei, QOT, Arianne or Dany.

Sweetrobin is a match for Cersei, Arriane or Dany :rofl:

[Jon Wolfwalker]

Sweetrobin is a match for Cersei, Arriane or Dany :rofl:

No. Their match is Hodor.

[Newstar]

I think a good argument can be made for this based on Sansa's interactions with a variety of people compared to how everyone else interacts with that same list of people: Sandor, Sweet Robin, Lollys stand out to this end, but there's also the way she thinks of Dontos, her strong feelings of camaraderie with Marg, befriending Randa, her thoughts of Mya, etc. She thinks about people differently than nearly every other POV (I actually think she and Jon have some similar ways of thinking about people).

Nope, sorry. She shrugs off Mycah's murder like it's no big, which is expected from her, I guess, but isn't indicative of someone with a heart three times too big. She thinks warmly of Marg, but in the same breath she thinks that Arya (her missing, possibly dead sister) had been "wholly unsatisfactory as far as sisters went." Her own sister. She also wishes that she could stomp out the Lords Declarant "like ants." She coldly orders Maester Colemon to feed Sweetrobin sweetsleep and brushes off his concerns, thinking contemptuously that he cares "only for the boy" and not for "larger concerns." And so on.

She's capable of moments of compassion and empathy, but then, so is Jaime, and I don't see anyone arguing that he's Mother Theresa. Sansa has her moments, as everyone in this series does (even the "villains" like Jaime and Theon), but she doesn't have some empathy superpower.

[butterbumps!]

Nope, sorry. She shrugs off Mycah's murder like it's no big, which is expected from her, I guess, but isn't indicative of someone with a heart three times too big. She thinks warmly of Marg, but in the same breath she thinks that Arya (her missing, possibly dead sister) had been "wholly unsatisfactory as far as sisters went." Her own sister. She also wishes that she could stomp out the Lords Declarant "like ants." She coldly orders Maester Colemon to feed Sweetrobin sweetsleep and brushes off his concerns, thinking contemptuously that he cares "only for the boy" and not for "larger concerns."

She's capable of moments of compassion and empathy, but then, so is Jaime, and I don't see anyone arguing that he's Mother Theresa. Sansa has her moments, as everyone in this series does (even the "villains" like Jaime and Theon), but she doesn't have some empathy superpower.

Sansa's emotional growth doesn't count because she shrugged off Mycah's death early in the series? Nope, sorry. Even Arya shrugs off Mycah's death later when she reflects on the fact she she barely knew him in truth. Even still, it can't be denied that as the story progresses, Sansa does in fact tap into reading and understanding people increasingly well, as well as the fact that she does deeply empathize with others.

I didn't suggest that she had an "empathy superpower" (that's borderline straw-manning my arguments, btw). I said the way she thinks about people is different than the other POVs for the most part save Jon at times, and I do believe she can understand and empathize better than most. This isn't a "super-power," but she is highly persuasive; she has excellent people skills, which stem from her being a good observer of behavior and emotion. She knows how to reach people, which can't happen if she were an emotional blockhead. I do think there's something significant to the fact that people like Sandor choose to open up to Sansa freely (as does LF later), as well as the fact that she can coax and calm people like Joffrey in ways that even Cersei cannot.

[Lion of Judah]

I always look to that Lyas incident as evidence of Sansa playing the game.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya actually does recall Mycah after the she says she can't remember Mycah.

This is right before he confesses:

"The Hound had killed Mycah. Mycah and more. I bet he's killed a hundred Mycahs. He probably would kill her too, if not for the ransom.""

Then she says his name after while Sandor is dying he calls Mycah Michael.

I don't make much of her instances of not remembering given that in AFFC she couldn't remember how old she was. She also tried to downplay once what Needle meant to her.

[Newstar]

Sansa's emotional growth doesn't count because she shrugged off Mycah's death early in the series? Nope, sorry.

Well, it seems quite clear that Sansa seems to be growing colder and less empathetic as of AFFC, so it's useful to go back to AGOT and see whether she was ever that empathetic to begin with. The answer, as shown by her callous view of Mycah's death (which is almost word for word what the callous killer for hire Sandor says on the matter), seems to be no, she was never a font of compassion to begin with.

I said the way she thinks about people is different than the other POVs for the most part save Jon at times, and I do believe she can understand and empathize better than most.

Empathy talent, then. You did state that you believe that Sansa has an ability to empathize that outstrips others', which suggests that you believe she has some unusual empathetic ability. I don't think "empathy superpower" is borderline straw-manning, as you claim, and nor does that negate my point. As I said, the assertion that Sansa is some font of empathy and understanding who surpasses most or all of the other characters is contradicted by the text.

I also question that empathy in the sense not of compassion but in understanding others' feelings and motivations is a positive thing. Littlefinger is highly "empathetic" in that he has a canny understanding of others' desires and feelings and what makes them tick. However, he uses this understanding in order to exploit them, just as he knows exactly how to cater to Lyn Corbray's love of gold, boys and killing. Sansa seems to be learning how to do this as well (bribing Sweetrobin with kisses and lemoncakes), but it's doubtful how "positive" this is.