[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[UselessOpinion]

I have a problem with anyone trying to downplay this because, while isn't an abusiveact, it hurts. Like crazy.

Well I guess here's where we disagree. I think being overtly hostile to a child is an act of abuse.

[SeanF]

What I don't understand is that any criticism/assignment of blame to Catelyn on this topic is taken as her being the reincarnation of evil. That's somewhat understandable because the history here is that some fans of Jon Snow absolutely despise Catelyn because of how she treated their favorite character. But it is also possible to say "I think Catelyn was wrong for the way she treated him" without blowing it out of proportion, and without ignoring all the other ways it in which she was a good person. I personally liked her. She was a loving mother and devoted to her family, but she wasn't a saint and fell short of what you'd hope to see with her treatment of Jon. I think that makes her a good person who didn't measure up in this one area, not a bad person.

That's a middle ground that actually exists.

Initially, when I was reading AGOT, I considered Catelyn to be stuck up and obnoxious, in large measure, due to her treatment of Jon. My view changed once I had the chance to reflect on her situation, and how humiliating it would be for a woman to be in her position (also, whereas Jon's first chapters induce a lot of sympathy for him, some later chapters at the Wall show him acting like a self-pitying spoilt brat).

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Ned had a father whom he likely saw a number of times, yet that didn't stop Jon Arryn from acting as a surrogate father to him. Additionally, looking at what the terms of Theon's status of being a hostage where it was likely he wasn't going to be able to return home until his father died and he was meant to take up the lordship of the Iron Islands.

I know, I am criticizing a double standard on how Cat/Ned respectively treated Jon/Theon and how that is viewed by many fans.

Ned was a ward, not a hostage of war. Ned was there as a grant of goodwill between families of the North and South, not, as the means to prevent treason. Why would Ned get close to a person whom he might have to behead one day? Jon was neither a hostage or a ward.

[Ser Greguh]

Again neglect implies she owes him something which she didn't. Simply, she ignored him and didn't act like his mother because she wasn't. It is not different then how Ned refused to play daddy for Theon, despite Theon's wishes, because he wasn't his father yet no one argues Ned was abusive/neglectful to him.

Again, this doesn't explain why Jon is frightened to go visit Bran until the very last day before he leaves. He is frightened of being in the same room as her, to the point where he (correctly) predicts that she will not react positively even to the purely unobjectionable sentiment to say goodbye to Bran before he leaves. This does not bespeak having simply been ignored.

Robb knows it, too, which is why he queries Jon as to Catelyn's treatment of him after Jon visits Bran anyway. Jon lies and says that she was kind. It's hinted that Robb knows Jon is lying, but goes along to keep the peace.

The rose-colored glasses with which even book experts view Book!Cat is astonishing.

[UselessOpinion]

The rose-colored glasses with which even book experts view Book!Cat is astonishing.

Pretty much this, though I think it extends to pretty much all characters. Take Ned as an example: many fans completely overlook some of the bad stuff he does because he's such a nice guy, when in fact he was a deeply flawed character.

[Minsc]

Why would Ned get close to a person whom he might have to behead one day? Jon was neither a hostage or a ward.

Why would Catelyn get close to a person that one day might try to usurp her own children's or grandchildren's claim?

[Gannicus]

Again, this doesn't explain why Jon is frightened to go visit Jon until the very last day before he leaves. He is frightened of being in the same room as her, to the point where he (correctly) predicts that she will not react positively even to the purely unobjectionable sentiment to say goodbye to Bran before he leaves. This does not bespeak having simply been ignored.

Robb knows it, too, which is why he queries Jon as to Catelyn's treatment of him after Jon visits Bran anyway. Jon lies and says that she was kind. It's hinted that Robb knows Jon is lying, but goes along to keep the peace.

The rose-colored glasses with which even book experts view Book!Cat is astonishing.

For sure, for some she can do no wrong and that get's a bit tiresome. But she's still a cool character who's a pretty good egg 90% of the time.

I didn't have a problem with the scene. I don't think this changes her character much either. In fact I think it makes her more sympathetic because she realizes it's not Jon's fault. It was added simply to set-up/foreshadow a bit.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

So Ned is exempt from Jon Arryn's example because his actions were dictated on punishing an innocent child for his father's actions? Seems like that is a complaint one hears commonly about another character's interactions with an innocent child.

Ned wasn't punishing Theon, and there isn't a shred of evidence that he held an ounce of ill-will or resentment towards Theon. None. And there's no evidence that Theon felt he did.

Either both had a responsibility to play parent or neither did in my mind.

I don't believe either Ned or Catelyn had to play parent, though I think the option was much more open to Catelyn than to Ned if they chose to do so. Ned simply could not have established a true parental relationship with hostage Theon. Catelyn, could have, had she chosen, treated baby Jon as one of her own.

In any case, Catelyn went beyond not just being his parent. She was affirmatively cold and exclusive towards him as much as she could get away with, to the point where Jon was well-aware of that and was uncomfortable being in the same room with her. Her mindset was revealed by her "it should have been you" comment, although it took that grief for her to say that to him out loud.

[jons nissa]

Yes, GRRM said that this was the only time she lashed out at Jon in this particular manner, but he also goes to great depths to describe how tumultuous the relationship actually was. So there was a negative pattern of behavior established in the text.

this! i actually think this quote was grrm's way to try to stop the negative attention she was receiving from some fans because although she only told jon once something as hateful as "it should have been you" there was indeed a clear pattern of negative behavior established. in fact, the first thing that robb asks jon after he goes to say goodbye to bran is "how was my mother?". cat's feelings were clear to the point that her children all knew how she felt. it doesn't mean the feelings weren't human but they were definitely there enough to make the older children worry about interactions between jon and their mother.

it was a difficult situation for sure but cat is not totally innocent in the books. she even thinks so herself when she states she fell completely in love with ned but never could manage to find love for jon. those sentiments insinuate that she should but couldn't and this seems to be her own interpretation of what a mother should be since westeros does support having bastards separated from true born. perhaps it might have been easier for her if she hadn't tried to do more than was expected. perhaps it is the conflict expressed in this scene that truly led to her anger and negative emotions regarding jon.

Alright fair enough. Though you're completely overlooking the fact that there were these microevents. Hell, the scene in the show I mentioned earlier was one of them.

i don't think sansa's thinking of jon were microevents. i think she truly sees jon differently - more positively - but only after she herself became a bastard. which is normal for westeros culture.

The appropriate middle ground is that Ned inflicted an untenable situation on both Catelyn and Jon, and they are victims of his secrets.

i agree with this. it was difficult for both. no one can deny that.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Again, this doesn't explain why Jon is frightened to go visit Jon until the very last day before he leaves. He is frightened of being in the same room as her, to the point where he (correctly) predicts that she will not react positively even to the purely unobjectionable sentiment to say goodbye to Bran before he leaves. This does not bespeak having simply been ignored.

Robb knows it, too, which is why he queries Jon as to Catelyn's treatment of him after Jon visits Bran anyway. Jon lies and says that she was kind. It's hinted that Robb knows Jon is lying, but goes along to keep the peace.

This. It wasn't just Catelyn not treating him as one of her own. She didn't treat Theon as one of her own either, yet I don't think anyone believes he would have received the same reaciton had he come in to see Bran when Catelyn was there.

[UselessOpinion]

i don't think sansa's thinking of jon were microevents. i think she truly sees jon differently - more positively - but only after she herself became a bastard. which is normal for westeros culture.

The microevents I was referring to were Cat's passive aggressive mannerisms with Jon. I should have been more clear.

[Gannicus]

Why would Catelyn get close to a person that one day might try to usurp her own children's or grandchildren's claim?

Oh come on. There are 5 Starks do you really think that was Cat's concern? Jon was a good kid who could have been raised by Ned Stark and Cat. I don't think that combo is likely going to create a second Bastard of Bloton do you?

I'm sure you know parents who have adopted children that they are still able to love even though they have blood related children.

[Katsa]

Initially, when I was reading AGOT, I considered Catelyn to be stuck up and obnoxious, in large measure, due to her treatment of Jon. My view changed once I had the chance to reflect on her situation, and how humiliating it would be for a woman to be in her position (also, whereas Jon's first chapters induce a lot of sympathy for him, some later chapters at the Wall show him acting like a self-pitying spoilt brat).

Most Jon fans have no problem admitting to the bolded part of your quote, though.

By the way, I also disagree with the line of thinking that Jon was raised in a castle (and lived the noble life), and is therefore disqualified from being allowed to feel hurt by Cat not loving him. Both Cat and Jon are victims.

Cat is my #1 favourite character and I have no problems with her being cold to Jon. It's the very thing that won her over for me, for some strange reason (I'd have liked her less if she went all saintly and loved Jon as her own son lol). One of the best written characters in the series, IMO. :)

[shiola]

To me it was her just lamenting after losing her other sons that if she had shown an inkling of kindness to Jon in essence she could have had another son to ease the pain of losing Bran and Rickon

This is how I saw it as well.

[Minsc]

Ned wasn't punishing Theon, and there isn't a shred of evidence that he held an ounce of ill-will or resentment towards Theon. None. And there's no evidence that Theon felt he did.

Ned forcibly took Theon from his mother, father, sister, and home to live in a foreign land where everyone was suspicious of him solely for his heritage because Balon messed up. Yet, despite that Ned additionally was cold and distant to Theon to the degree that Theon felt resentment on that issue.

Seems to me that Ned acted in way that directly isolated Theon and did little to provide him comfort for the loss of his family.

Similarly, Catelyn was cold and distant to Jon to the degree that Jon felt resentment on that issue. So I don't see the difference in their two actions of one being more wrong then the other. The only real difference is we don't ever actually see Theon and Ned interact with each other from Theon's POV while we do see Jon's POV on Catelyn.

[Minsc]

Oh come on. There are 5 Starks do you really think that was Cat's concern? Jon was a good kid who could have been raised by Ned Stark and Cat. I don't think that combo is likely going to create a second Bastard of Bloton do you?

I'm sure you know parents who have adopted children that they are still able to love even though they have blood related children.

Yet, besides Arya none of them look like a traditional Stark nor did she have five other kids the entire time Jon was present in her life.

Yes, but they don't live in a Medieval Setting nor does most adoption begin with the couple having the child forced onto them without their permission.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Ned forcibly took Theon from his mother, father, sister, and home to live in a foreign land where everyone was suspicious of him solely for his heritage because Balon messed up. Yet, despite that Ned additionally was cold and distant to Theon to the degree that Theon felt resentment on that issue. Seems to me that Ned acted in way that directly isolated Theon and did little to provide him comfort for the loss of his family.

That's because it was necessary as an act of state/war. He was a hostage. Jon wasn't.

Similarly, Catelyn was cold and distant to Jon to the degree that Jon felt resentment on that issue. So I don't see the difference in their two actions of one being more wrong then the other. The only real difference is we don't ever actually see Theon and Ned interact with each other from Theon's POV while we do see Jon's POV on Catelyn.

Okay, so you're saying that Theon felt just as uncomfortable in Ned's presence as Jon did in Catelyn's? That if Ned had been at Bran's bedside, and Theon had walked in, Ned might have said "it should have been you"? That Ned prayed at night for all those years that Theon would leave Winterfell? That Ned harbored resentment towards Theon?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think we're forgeting something: Cat is dutyful, she says she always does what is expected out of her. If Ned wanted his son to be treated like his other kids, wouldn't Cat would be expected at least to accept him? He hasn't ever mistreated, just ignored him or made clear that he's not allowed to what the legitimate Stark kids are, but I guess Ned could have hoped for her to care a bit more. It wouldn't be completely out of character for Ned, though.

I didn't like the pox story as Cat could have just delivered the "it should have been you" line when Jon visited Bran. Now there's a bit of back tracking to cover the dynamic.

Actually, that line makes sense because we know now that Jon indeed almost died. Had Jon died, then Cat wouldn't be "forced" to loved him or accepted him and there was no promise to break. But Jon survived, and she couldn't love the kid, hence, all the bad things that happened to them, starting with Bran.

In the books, Catelyn does not identify herself as Jon's (step) mother. He's her husband's bastard; he has absolutely no connection to her.

In the books, Catelyn is not defined by her interaction with Jon Snow.

Because there is not interaction with Jon, but that doesn't mean that Jon is not a big part of their lives and problems, as his origin has been a shadow in her marriage due to Ned's secrecy. Jon has received the same privileges as her children, and she had to accepted it, while other women simply ask for the bastards kids to go away: that's something that defines a character and the dynamic of a relationship, as she learned to love Ned while ignoring the fact that he wanted his bastard to be loved as well. Now we know that showCat tried to care about him but couldn't, and she forgave his husband's "mistake": Cersei, otoh, never forgave Robert's and he didn't even give him a chance.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Why would Catelyn get close to a person that one day might try to usurp her own children's or grandchildren's claim?

Paranoia over an event that might happen, Jon usurping her bloodline, and proven actions by Balon Greyjoy cannot be compared.

[Minsc]

Okay, so you're saying that Theon felt just as uncomfortable in Ned's presence as Jon did in Catelyn's? That if Ned had been at Bran's bedside, and Theon had walked in, Ned might have said "it should have been you"? That Ned prayed at night for all those years that Theon would leave Winterfell? That Ned harbored resentment towards Theon?

Theon had enough resentment about not being accepted that he used it as partial justification for his decision to go and capture Winterfell, yet Jon resentment over Catelyn isn't enough that he is willing to accept Stannis's offer to make him Lord of Winterfell.

Ned didn't resent Theon as he didn't represent a personal betrayal of him by his spouse not does his presence shame Ned and the Starks in front of the entire realm