[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I

I don't think she treated Jon like garbage, but yeah, she hated him. If she was indifferent towards him she would not have cared if Jon stayed at WF or not. But she was absolutely insistent that Jon leave along with Ned and would rather prefer some distant lord in the vale get WF than Ned's own son. I would say she was indifferent towards Theon, but that she hated Jon. Which is understandable, considering he looked like Ned, was a reminder of Ned's infidelity and could be a threat to her children's inheritance. I can understand her hatred, but I can't justify her hating a kid for no fault of his own.

I don't see anything wrong in knowing that she could show some love and kindness to a motherless child when he was sick. Nothing wrong with that and it's far from character assassination.

I see Catelyn, book and TV versions, as being a good person to her family, who behaves badly when it comes to Jon, and indifferent to anyone else who is beneath her class. She most definitely hated him, and I wouldn't call 12 hours of praying showing love and kindness, it was a purely selfish guilt driven act in order to clear her conscience in case he died, and nothing more. That is evident by the return of her hatred of him when he survived. He's better now, guilt over, I still hate this little bastard. Now she's full of, understandable, grief of losing her husband and fear for her children and is falling back on the Jon guilt because it's the only thing that makes sense, to her, in all of the madness going on right now.

[Minsc]

In the same passage however, it shows that Jon Snow waited to go see Bran for a long period of time and did not do so because Catelyn was in the room. This establishes the fact that Jon has felt Catelyn's hatred of him and is uncomfortable. To have someone hate you so much that you will not go and see a loved brother who may be on his death bed shows us that this action of Catelyn's was probably not just an isolated incident. As I mentioned in another post, she never questions that action either with an apology, or a thought of apology for the rest of the series even after her time of great emotional stress has been subsided.

The author and creator of both Jon and Catelyn has directly said that it was an isolated incident brought about by her great stress. Also, when did you expect her to apologize to him she only leaves Bran's side after Jon has left for the wall. Moreover, by then Catelyn is busy with trying to find out who attempted to kill her son and later a war both which keep her away from her two actual young children. So when was she supposed to make a trip to the wall to tell Jon that she is sorry?

[freetickles]

I thought this scene was great. Most of the critiques seem to center around the idea that, as Ran said in his review, Cat "does not have a social or moral obligation to be his mother" under the norms of Westerosi culture.

So what? As much as we all love ASOIAF, Westeros is not a real place and its culture was invented entirely by GRRM. This show is not historical fiction, and it isn't the bible that it's trying to recreate. It may be that some Westerosi customs aren't absolutely necessary to be translated to the TV show. When the show deviates from the books in a way that wouldn't quite work in the books (from what we know of the books), it doesn't mean it's inconsistent within the show and therefore isn't necessarily a problem.

In this case the change doesn't detract from the story whatsoever, and if the viewer doesn't understand that Cat doesn't have an obligation to Jon Snow, this doesn't hurt her character. If anything, a viewer that doesn't completely understand the laws and customs regarding parentage in the Seven Kingdoms has probably always wondered why Catelyn hates him so much. This revelation gives us an insight into what has really been a black hole for us as viewers, just as it remains a black hole for us as readers - what were Catelyn's and Jon Snow's interactions at Winterfell really like over the past 14 years. We know that Jon grew up with his half-sibling/cousins, and we know that Jon and Robb fully understand how Jon is different and that Robb probably learned that from Catelyn, but we don't know a lot more than that. Based on the scene in the book (and the show) when Jon visits Bran's bedside, we have a sense that Cat's and Jon's relationship is awkward as hell if not nonexistent, but it's strange to think of what that was like on a day-to-day basis for the entirety of Jon's life.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Catelyn is the eldest daughter of Hoster Tully, one of the Lords Paramount. She's a great person in her own right, and would expect to be treated with the respect due to the daughter of a Lord Paramount.

It's not part of the social contract among the nobles of Westeros that a husband will remain faithful to his wife. It's certainly part of the social contract that he won't publicly disrespect her. That's why bastards get fostered with other families.

True, but the other poster was drawing an equivalency between Ned fathering a bastard, and Catelyn bearing one. And in Westeros, those two things are not equivalent.

[Minsc]

Just because she didn't beat Jon for any infraction (or at all) doesn't mean she wasn't abusive. Being neglectful in its own right is a form of abuse.

Saying she was neglectful charges that she had a responsibility to provide something for Jon, something she never had.

[Howdyphillip]

The author and creator of both Jon and Catelyn has directly said that it was an isolated incident brought about by her great stress. Also, when did you expect her to apologize to him she only leaves Bran's side after Jon has left for the wall. Moreover, by then Catelyn is busy with trying to find out who attempted to kill her son and later a war both which keep her away from her two actual young children. So when was she supposed to make a trip to the wall to tell Jon that she is sorry?

Yes, GRRM said that this was the only time she lashed out at Jon in this particular manner, but he also goes to great depths to describe how tumultuous the relationship actually was. So there was a negative pattern of behavior established in the text.

As for the apology, I have never said that she had to ride up to the wall and bring flowers. I am just saying that she never acknowledged to herself that her actions were wrong either through an apology or the thought of an apology at any time.

In my mind, Catelyn Stark is not exonerated for her treatment of Jon Snow in any way on the books. I also feel like it makes the character richer and more believably human. She is one of my favorites.

[UselessOpinion]

Saying she was neglectful charges that she had a responsibility to provide something to Jon, something she never had.

Being a decent human being to someone is some sort of hard unbearable responsibility?

Nevermind Jon for now. Cat married Ned for political purposes, but she admits that over time she grew to love the guy. She could see that Jon meant the world to Ned, just as the rest of the children. The guy prayed to his gods (WoW/Bran's greendreams) that Rob and Jon could grow to love each other as brothers and that his wife would find it in her to love him as a son as well. But she couldn't do it and it's understandable. That doesn't excuse the way she acted though.

[Minsc]

Being a decent human being to someone is some sort of hard unbearable responsibility?

Ignoring someone does mean you are not a decent human being to them, it just means you don't interact with them.

As for the apology, I have never said that she had to ride up to the wall and bring flowers. I am just saying that she never acknowledged to herself that her actions were wrong either through an apology or the thought of an apology at any time.

Ran has already mentioned that she felt guilty about that interaction when in the Vale.

[Juan_Snow]

I didn't mind the scene. I think the scene was there to set up the legitimization of Jon and Robb naming him his heir. Also Jon Snow is one of the most beloved characters on the show, so maybe viewers will start liking Catelyn more, so the RW will be more devastating.

I think that is exactly what the scene was added for. I personally couldn't stand book Catelyn, so her death at the RW had very little effect on me compared to Robb's. I saw it as Catelyn reaping what she sowed in ASoS. If they make Catelyn into a more likable character it's going to be devastating when she gets her throat cut.

[UselessOpinion]

Ignoring someone does mean you are not a decent human being to them, it just means you don't interact with them.

There's ignoring and then there's obnoxious passive aggressive stares, scolding someone for being affectionate to him, etc..

Just think about season 1 when Bran is learning to shoot his bow and Jon, Rob, and Ned laugh. Then Cat gives him "the look." There's a well established pattern of this stuff in their history.

[Minsc]

I think that is exactly what the scene was added for. I personally couldn't stand book Catelyn, so her death at the RW had very little effect on me compared to Robb's. I saw it as Catelyn reaping what she sowed in ASoS. If they make Catelyn into a more likable character it's going to be devastating when she gets her throat cut.

How is it reaping what she sowed for a mother to watch what she believes is her last living son be murdered before her eyes just before being killed herself?

[David Selig]

I suppose that depends on how you define "mean" and "abusive", so this seems more semantics than anything. But clearly, Jon knew how Catelyn felt about him, and that if it was up to her, he'd be out of Winterfell. Ignoring and being cold to a child, to the point where the child knows he is not even welcome in the home in which he lives, strikes me as mean (not to mention what she said to Jon when Bran was injured), even though I wouldn't characterize that as "abusive". So I don't see the inconsistency.

Whatever you call it, how is it not an inconsistency? In the books, Cat wanted Jon gone from Winterfell and was cold to him, in the other, she prayed for his death when he was still a baby (and is a devout person clearly believing in the power of prayer). One of those things seems a lot worse to me.

Being a decent human being to someone is some sort of hard unbearable responsibility?

Nevermind Jon for now. Cat married Ned for political purposes, but she admits that over time she grew to love the guy. She could see that Jon meant the world to Ned, just as the rest of the children. The guy prayed to his gods (WoW/Bran's greendreams) that Rob and Jon could grow to love each other as brothers and that his wife would find it in her to love him as a son as well.

Wrong.

“… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”

That's it, even in his prayers Ned never expected or hoped for such a thing because it's simply absurd for the Westeros way of thinking.

[Big Daddy Dave]

I didn't read the 2nd through the 8th pages, so I don't know if this has been hit upon. I wonder if this scene is setting up what we haven't seen in the books yet. I don't think Cat's arc in the books is done until she deals with Jon. She may need to help him in some way before she can move on and this scene on the show makes me wonder if they are setting that character arc up.

[Howdyphillip]

Ran has already mentioned that she felt guilty about that interaction when in the Vale.

And I have already mentioned that isn't what happened in the text. What happens there is that she thinks of Jon Snow when she meets Mya Stone because Stone is a bastards name in the Vale. It says that the thought of him brought up anger and guilt. It never mentioned anything about her lashing out at him.

[Minsc]

There's ignoring and then there's obnoxious passive aggressive stares, scolding someone for being affectionate to him, etc..

Just think about season 1 when Bran is learning to shoot his bow and Jon, Rob, and Ned laugh. Then Cat gives him "the look." There's a well established pattern of this stuff in their history.

Yes, that is why Jon had such a distant relationship with his siblings. Oh wait, every single one of his siblings seem to like him quite a bit.

[SeanF]

I

I see Catelyn, book and TV versions, as being a good person to her family, who behaves badly when it comes to Jon, and indifferent to anyone else who is beneath her class. She most definitely hated him, and I wouldn't call 12 hours of praying showing love and kindness, it was a purely selfish guilt driven act in order to clear her conscience in case he died, and nothing more. That is evident by the return of her hatred of him when he survived. He's better now, guilt over, I still hate this little bastard. Now she's full of, understandable, grief of losing her husband and fear for her children and is falling back on the Jon guilt because it's the only thing that makes sense, to her, in all of the madness going on right now.

I think it would be going too far to say that Catelyn (in the books) "hated" Jon Snow. "Disliked" or "resented" would be more accurate IMHO. We later learn that she feels some guilt about this, when she's riding up to the Eyrie.

So, it seems that the series has exaggerated her feelings towards Jon, raising them to hatred at one extreme, and a great deal of remorse for this hatred, at the other.

Book Catelyn would never have prayed for Jon's death; but nor would she be very sorry if he did die. She wouldn't have been malevolent towards him, but would be quite happy never to see him again. And. if Ned had said he was sending him away to squire for one of his bannermen, she'd have been quite content with that.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

So ... what you're saying is that I'm being "silly" for castigating behavior that you justify in the context of small children doing it all the time. Children who make such declarations inevitably recant them past the heat of the moment, or when the implications of that wish are explained to them in full.

More to the point, Catelyn is not a small child. That she behaves like one in a moment of stress is precisely what makes her unsympathetic. She is an adult woman who, as you say, was forced into a situation where a child who stood as a constant reminder of her husband's infidelity was forced into her daily presence. So she takes out her frustration on Jon himself, which is irrational enough, not unlike Tywin Lannister blaming his wife's death on Tyrion. But unlike even Tywin, she never has mixed emotions about Jon (Tywin at least acknowledges Tyrion's abilities to some degree, at times); when she deigns to think about him at all, it is always with resentment. She says horrible things to him that she never recants. She displays no complexity of thought or emotion toward these feelings in the books. It's very one-note, and one-note plays better on the page than on the screen.

Very well said!

[UselessOpinion]

Yes, that is why Jon had such a distant relationship with his siblings. Oh wait, every single one of his siblings seem to like him quite a bit.

Sansa doesn't, it seems whenever she thinks of him its mostly as an afterthought. Arya and Bran love the crap out of him. The Stark kids seem to ignore it, but that doesn't mean Jon doesn't recognize it.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Whatever you call it, how is it not an inconsistency? In the books, Cat wanted Jon gone from Winterfell and was cold to him, in the other, she prayed for his death when he was still a baby (and is a devout person clearly believing in the power of prayer). One of those things seems a lot worse to me.

It's a matter of degree that doesn't change the basic nature of her view of Jon. And I think they needed to add some punch to her feelings after omitting the "it should have been you" line from the first season. Which is worse -- secretly wishing someone dead (HBO), or telling that to them to their face (books)? So yes, it's a change, but no, I don't see it as a particular inconsistency.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Yes, that is why Jon had such a distant relationship with his siblings. Oh wait, every single one of his siblings seem to like him quite a bit.

No thanks to Catelyn.