Jon restricted to the Wall....annoying?

[Penguin king]

Just a quick question, but does anyone want anything for Jon other than A) Claiming Winterfell and avenging the Starks or B ) Discovering his secret Targ heritage and sitting on the Iron throne?

[Tagganaro]

I think it was a shame that Jon rejected stannis' offer to be legitimized and become the new Lord Stark in WF (plus marrying Val). It would have been interesting to perhaps see the northern lords rallying to him and perhaps leading part of stannis' army, get some vengeance for the RW.

On the other hand though.. the wall needs a strong POV character for the imminent attack of the Others and I really can't see anyone else doing it (Mel dosn't really fit). There's perhaps the potential for Mance though, if he somehow escapes Ramsay's clutches...

The problem with the offer (and why Jon rejected it in the first place) was that Stannis/Mel would have forced him to burn down the WF weirwood tree and take on the Red God. Also considering that WF wasn't Stannis's to give and therefore wasn't Jon's to take (at least in the Northmen's mind), I'm not sure that the Northmen would have rallied to a legitimized Jon in such a case.

Perhaps it will be better (if it comes to pass) that Jon is legitimized by Robb's will rather than Stannis.

To get to the OP's point, I am kind of in agreement and kind of not. For the most part, Jon is my favorite character in ASOIAF, and a big part of that has been the location at the Wall and all the action/plot/character developments that the Wall and the NW has entailed. For me, Jon's ADWD were his best chapters yet and among the best in the series. No small part of that was watching Jon chafe under the restrictions of the NW while trying to do his best to live up to words of his vow.

However, part of me agrees that if we are going to see Jon's story truly continue to grow, that would involve him going back South and getting more involved with politics. In ADWD, Jon is already essentially playing a role as de facto King in the North, waging a proxy military campaign through Stannis and even making strategic marriage alliances for his bannermen. It would be very interesting to see the kid gloves taken off of that role and have him not be restricted by the NW anymore in TWOW.

[caravaggio]

I can easily see the next scene we get from The Wall being its destruction from Mel's POV, the NW being torn to shreds, and Mel or Val racing off with an injured and unconscious Jon.

[thecryptile]

I'd hate to see the wall fall and the end of the NW. it's such an interesting concept, turns alot of fantasy tropes on their heads.

[locke and key]

I think Jon is a well developed and interesting character. I have no issues with his development or plot but it would have been interesting to see how he dealt with characters south of the wall.

As much as readers get annoyed with Dany stuck in Essos, Jon is stuck at the wall as well. I get the feeling that we will never see him south of the neck. His story will most probably begin and end at the wall. Along with Bran.

I think that Jon and Bran are the only major characters who travel the very least in the books. They went from Winterfell to the Wall. And that's about it. Except for some undercover operations beyond the wall. Even Dany has travelled quite a bit in Essos

As opposed to someone like Tyrion who has been all over the place. He travels from KL to WF, takes a trip to the Wall, is taken to the Vale by Cat, makes it back to KL and then travels to Pentos etc. I think Catelyn and Arya have also moved around quite a bit.

I'd also include cersei as a character who moves very little, she went up to winterfell in the beginning of agot and hasn't left KL since she returned

[caravaggio]

I'd hate to see the wall fall and the end of the NW. it's such an interesting concept, turns alot of fantasy tropes on their heads.

I think Jon might rebuild the Watch and still consider himself Lord Commander even after the Wall falls or that might be his intention shortly after. The Vows don't seem specific to The Wall itself (though many of the members of the NW would probably look at its destruction as a reason to leave). Yes, they say "I am the watcher on the walls", but not "The Wall". Sounds to me more like a vow the NW take to defend the realm against the Others no matter the location.

[Malgarroth]

Honestly I would like him to stick with the NW until the war is over then maybe go off and actually find some happiness.

I mean, you know, now his watch has ended.

[Rhaenar]

The problem with the offer (and why Jon rejected it in the first place) was that Stannis/Mel would have forced him to burn down the WF weirwood tree and take on the Red God. Also considering that WF wasn't Stannis's to give and therefore wasn't Jon's to take (at least in the Northmen's mind), I'm not sure that the Northmen would have rallied to a legitimized Jon in such a case.

Perhaps it will be better (if it comes to pass) that Jon is legitimized by Robb's will rather than Stannis.

Hmm, true. Perhaps my original fantasy of 'what might have happened' was too good to be true.

Stannis' elegance with the Red God now seem to be the main detrimental aspect thats dragging down his campaign (even further). It was certianly helpful in ACOK with Renly's death and other stuff but now it seems to be doing more harm than good, Jon's rejection is just one example of this.

[buzzardsrule]

Agree

[Kahl Trollo]

Just a quick question, but does anyone want anything for Jon other than A) Claiming Winterfell and avenging the Starks or B ) Discovering his secret Targ heritage and sitting on the Iron throne?

I would liked to have seen him as a major combatant in the upcoming battle against the Others, and rebuilding the Nights Watch as it once may have been rather than the institution it became. To be honest if I was in charge of a small group of men-at-arms, making tough decisions, and getting nearly assassinated for it, the last thing I'd be thinking would be 'Yeah this is fun... shit I think I'll become a King!' - I'd be telling people offering Lordship where they could shove it - with a dry angry fist - after that experience.

[Penguin king]

I would liked to have seen him as a major combatant in the upcoming battle against the Others, and rebuilding the Nights Watch as it once may have been rather than the institution it became. To be honest if I was in charge of a small group of men-at-arms, making tough decisions, and getting nearly assassinated for it, the last thing I'd be thinking would be 'Yeah this is fun... shit I think I'll become a King!' - I'd be telling people offering Lordship where they could shove it - with a dry angry fist - after that experience.

What confuses me, is that we know the Others are coming, that people are dying and resources are being wasted in the fight for the Iron Throne when the real threat is north of the Wall, yet a lot of people would prefer for Jon to give up his watch and desert his brothers and go play at being king in Winterfell instead.

[EnergeticCrab]

I don't think Jon is going to leave the wall or even the north. But the idea of him in Dorne makes me laugh every time so I think he should travel.

[FNF]

Stannis' elegance with the Red God now seem to be the main detrimental aspect thats dragging down his campaign (even further). It was certianly helpful in ACOK with Renly's death and other stuff but now it seems to be doing more harm than good, Jon's rejection is just one example of this.

We see that Stannis is about pay homage to the Old Gods through the sacrifice of a Kraken, the ancient enemies of the North. Stannis is not devout nor will he ever be so. He practically says as much. As long as it suits him, he'll go along with it. Stannis is going to champion the Old Gods which will honour his Northern comrades/soon to be comrades yet he will also champion the Red God for the Southern soldiers.

[AchillesReborn]

I hope the wall gets destroyed. No wall = No Night's Watch, and with no vows, Jon can be King.

[JLE]

Yeah. Stannis is no true believer in any gods, although his style is more suited to a fanatical-type religion, such as Mellisandre's take on the faith of R'hllor. Oddly enough, the other Red Priest in Westeros of which we know a lot - Thoros of Myr - does not seem to be that kind of fanatic, although both of the Eastern ones we know - Benerro and Moqorro - seem to be.

Mellisandre was given a POV, in a chapter which could just as easily have been narrated from Jons's POV. I can only think of a couple of reasons for this:

- (1) To show that she is far from the certainty-fuelled fanatic that she has hitherto been presented as, and possibly even to suggest that she may be about to undergo a full-on crisis of faith, and be forced to examine what she REALLY believes in, and indeed whether what she has been so sincerely working for is the right thing, given that her intentions are in fact "good":

- (2) To provide us with a temporary alternative POV at the Wall, to bear witness to events during the absence, temporary or permanent, of Jon Snow.

Now, while (2) would be a good reason, it could have been filled by more than a few others. (1) seems to me to make a more fascinating theory. Of course, the combination of the two cannot be discarded.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The problem with the offer (and why Jon rejected it in the first place) was that Stannis/Mel would have forced him to burn down the WF weirwood tree and take on the Red God. Also considering that WF wasn't Stannis's to give and therefore wasn't Jon's to take (at least in the Northmen's mind), I'm not sure that the Northmen would have rallied to a legitimized Jon in such a case.

Perhaps it will be better (if it comes to pass) that Jon is legitimized by Robb's will rather than Stannis.

To get to the OP's point, I am kind of in agreement and kind of not. For the most part, Jon is my favorite character in ASOIAF, and a big part of that has been the location at the Wall and all the action/plot/character developments that the Wall and the NW has entailed. For me, Jon's ADWD were his best chapters yet and among the best in the series. No small part of that was watching Jon chafe under the restrictions of the NW while trying to do his best to live up to words of his vow.

However, part of me agrees that if we are going to see Jon's story truly continue to grow, that would involve him going back South and getting more involved with politics. In ADWD, Jon is already essentially playing a role as de facto King in the North, waging a proxy military campaign through Stannis and even making strategic marriage alliances for his bannermen. It would be very interesting to see the kid gloves taken off of that role and have him not be restricted by the NW anymore in TWOW.

Pretty much this. Nice one.

[lady m]

I agree with Tagg about Jon's storyline moving forward. He may not be tied to the Wall much longer, through a number of developments. But I strongly disagree that his being at the Wall up to now has been any hindrance, especially on character development.

He's grown tremendously, from being spoiled and self centered to someone who has a pretty good grasp on reading people. Never trusts Mel, Bowen Marsh, Selyse and others that come with Stannis. But he sees the value in Stannis himself. He sees beyond the letter of the law to mother worth in Mance, and the wildlings in general. He's developing into a good leader who makes decisions for the whole, which are forward looking, rather than fitting his personal desires, while still being human enough to throw all that away for someone he loves.

I also find the northern storyline just as interesting as the southern Westeros one. It has it's own version of political intrigue, adventure, back stabbing - literally - and a bit of romance added in.

[Gannicus]

I don't think Jon will need either ... A: resurrecting or B: to remain at the wall.. One of the things that's beginning to come through more and more clearly ( and not just with the NW) is that the old rules don't fit the new situation , and will have to be restructured . Stripped down to basics , Old Nan's , so long as the men of the NW stay true ( that's , true to their purpose of opposing the Others ) sums up the essence of the NW vows ( which by the way , say "I am the watcher on the WALLS ", not just wall ). I can see no reason why some NW can't be in other locations , still being vigilant and working against the others without breaking the spirit or intention of the vow ,or their commitment to it.

A new understanding on the part of the NW is needed .. or a return to the old , original understanding. The question is not whether desertion deserves execution , but what truly constitutes desertion.. It's the same question we've already seen raised when Jon defected to Mance.

The vow, with it's added on political stipulations and traditions does not work any longer. The additions and amendments were failing badly at the beginning of the story. The pact with the 7 Kingdoms was not being lived up to on it's part ...before the Others appeared , and before the 7 Kingdoms dissolved into chaos. Now , those stipulations are pretty meaningless. It's time to get back to basics.

This is a great post.

And I think it's clear what is coming next.

"He never felt the fourth knife, only the cold." To me that implies that the others have arrived. Jon's unconscious body will be whisked away from the Wall. After the Wall falls the NW will no longer be confined to the Wall itself. When Jon finally does come back he will be able to protect the realm from anywhere he needs to be within the seven kingdoms.

It could ultimately prove he will best protect the realm by sitting the Iron Throne and rallying the 7 Kingdoms.

It won't come down to Jon forsaking his vows, he'll adapt and do what he needs to make Westeros survives even if it means turning as far south as KingsLanding.

[Faint]

Count me among those frustrated by Jon staying at the Wall and thereby restricting the number of characters he can interact with. Thankfully, I think this situation is quickly coming to an end.

[Lord-Paul_Aaron]

I absolutely agree. I've wanted Jon to leave the wall and do awesome stuff since day 1.