[All 5 book spoilers] Can we make guesses about books 6 & 7 from the TV show storylines?

[boojam]

Yes, exactly. It's foreshadowing on how she shifts from "Who wants to die defending a Lannister?" to "I'll be ready to die defending a Lannister".

As for whether anything can be guessed on what's to come in the books... Yes and no. Mel telling Arya they'll meet again means they will. But is that in the books or the show? Because as faithful as they've been so far, we've had some departures and some interactions that did not exist in the books. So to guess would be mostly speculation. Not that it should stop you.

I don't think Mel and Arya have ever meet in the books.

If it's a spoiler it's the weakest one I have ever seen.

[six]

I don't think Mel and Arya have ever meet in the books.

If it's a spoiler it's the weakest one I have ever seen.

No, they have not. What I meant is that Mel telling Arya they'll meet again in the show might foreshadow they'll meet in the books. But like I said, it has no basis really.

[metr0man]

Actually the one thing that the show may have telegraphed about the books is the overt Varys vs Littlefinger angle.

[boojam]

Actually the one thing that the show may have telegraphed about the books is the overt Varys vs Littlefinger angle.

I can't say it's a flashing neon sign, but it's in the novels.

[rystine]

I'm late to the conversation, but I'll give my two cents.

I honestly don't see how one can't make guesses about the final two books based on the show, for three reasons:

1. The show is catching up to the books. And lets be honest, it will most likely catch and possibly even surpass the books.

2. As much as staunch book purists like to say otherwise, the show has been a fairly faithful adaptation.

3. As we know, several of the show runners are fully aware of how the rest of the story plays out. Obviously Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman do, but lets also not forget that GRRM himself is involved in creating the show as well.

To think that you can't predict the story of the final books based off material from the show is, IMHO, kind of naive. Of course that's not to say that all predictions will be accurate. But the fact of the matter is that as the show closes in on the books the writers will inevitably have to start using, or foreshadowing, various story elements from the remaining books.

[boojam]

I'm late to the conversation, but I'll give my two cents.

I honestly don't see how one can't make guesses about the final two books based on the show, for three reasons:

1. The show is catching up to the books. And lets be honest, it will most likely catch and possibly even surpass the books.

2. As much as staunch book purists like to say otherwise, the show has been a fairly faithful adaptation.

3. As we know, several of the show runners are fully aware of how the rest of the story plays out. Obviously Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman do, but lets also not forget that GRRM himself is involved in creating the show as well.

To think that you can't predict the story of the final books based off material from the show is, IMHO, kind of naive. Of course that's not to say that all predictions will be accurate. But the fact of the matter is that as the show closes in on the books the writers will inevitably have to start using, or foreshadowing, various story elements from the remaining books.

Well will have to see, because GRRM has a outlier sense of humor that could turn this who series into a shaggy dog story, would amuse me, but I don't think most would like it.

[CrypticWeirwood]

A couple of predictions based on the show, I think Dany doesn't sit on the iron throne, she does in Essos what Aegon the Conqueror did to Westeros and Jon Snow will sit on the throne when its all said and done.

Very good!

A lot of folks were so upset with how the visions in the House of the Undying seemed so different in the show compared with the book that they didn’t distill out the key points of the show’s version to divine what prophesies remained or perhaps even were newly made.

You did, so good for you.

So what all do we know from the show’s visions? Keep an eye open for non-literal metaphors here:

1. Dany will venture to the lands Beyond the Wall, maybe even as far as the Lands of Always Winter.
   
2. There she amidst the snow, Dany will meet her husband and child.
   
3. Sheltered from the brutal winds of winter without, Dany will be unexpectedly warm and happy there with them—for a spell.
   
4. She will not stay with them, but leave and go south, finding that winter has preceded her.
   
5. The Red Keep will be put to the torch, and not just the Tower of the Hand as Cersei would later do after Tywin’s mercy-killing, but indeed the very Throne Room itself would be slagged just like Harrenhall was by Aegon the Conqueror: almost certainly by dragonfire.
   
6. Neither shall Kings Landing be spared from the ravages of winter, which will penetrate into the innermost heart of the Seven Kingdoms.
   
7. The kindom will be emptied of the living.
   
8. Dany will reach for the Iron Throne, and come within a whisker of it, but never actually touch it, let alone come to occupy it with her royal behind.
   
9. It will be a bitter winter’s night when she gets there; no warmth or light of sun will light her path, only the twinkling night sky. There will be no sign of the dawn will be seen, just the Long Night that never ends.
   
10. Snow shall rest upon the Iron Throne when she at last makes that far, to her wonder and surprise.
    
11. Dany will be alone at the end, having neither her counsellors nor even her children with her.
    

Some of that I believe to be literal, some metaphor.

Other parts may simply be the constraints of the show. Remember that in the real-time storyline, Dany’s dragonlings were held captive during these visions, so it may not have made any sense to show them. Plus you certainly would not want to reveal their eventual splendor to the TV audience.

Martin is especially fond of metaphors of things standing in for people, like Egg himself being the dragon who would hatch in The Mystery Night. It would be very much like him for either or both of the instances of “snow” in the visions above to be referring to the person we have come to know as Jon Snow.

What else was in Dany’s visions at the House of the Undying?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Well will have to see, because GRRM has a outlier sense of humor that could turn this who series into a shaggy dog story, would amuse me, but I don't think most would like it.

I’m afraid that it’s more than a little too late for that not to happen: why else do think that Rickon’s direwolf is named “Shaggydog”? Pretty obvious telegraphing there. Every one of those wolfling pups has a name that profoundly foreshadows the long-time destiny of their paired wolfling child.

1. Robb will become a Grey Wind.
   
2. Jon will become a Ghost.
   
3. Sansa will become a Lady.
   
4. Arya will become a Nymeria, a warrior-queen from Essos come.
   
5. Bran will become Summer.
   
6. Rickon will become a Shaggydog.
   

All these things have either already occurred or else are well on their way to playing out in full.

So if you aren’t looking for a shaggydog story, it’s probably best to stop now. ;}

[The Halfhand]

I read this somewhere else, so it's not my theory, but in Season 2 Theon says "I swear to the the drowned god, old gods, the new gods, to every fucking god that I will kill that man if it is the last thing I do!" This is in regards to the horn-blower outside of Winterfell when it is surrounded. Seeing as how the show's [awesome] Ramsay has been blowing his horn every time we see him, then perhaps this foreshadows Theon killing Ramsay.Thoughts?

[ObsidianEdge]

There are plenty of threads about individual changes, or the arcs of story lines being different between books and the TV show...I enjoy going through them when I have time trying to figure out where things are going.

Is there a comprehensive listing thread of the TV show's alterations/deviations from the books?

I'm certain the great hive mind of Westeros.org has already ferreted them all out piece by piece, but is there a listing somewhere?

Thanks, and sorry if I have asked a dumb question...

[SpaceChampion]

As an aside: in the facebook game, which are producing new content the day after each HBO episode, and are produced by game developers who have seen the episode before it airs, and have all the content approved by HBO... well, today for their episode 7 content Talisa asks Kirth (an undercover agent of your character in the game) to

Spoiler

get some herbs for her. I saw that and immediately wondered if it was tansy, as an abortifactant. Is this implying that Talisa is in fact a spy for the Lannisters, and she's planning on aborting Robb's heir?

Also, Talisa's letter can be purchased as an item with intrigue stats.

So if we can make guesses about the books from the show, apparently we can also make guesses about the show from the game.

[Wouter]

I read this somewhere else, so it's not my theory, but in Season 2 Theon says "I swear to the the drowned god, old gods, the new gods, to every fucking god that I will kill that man if it is the last thing I do!" This is in regards to the horn-blower outside of Winterfell when it is surrounded. Seeing as how the show's [awesome] Ramsay has been blowing his horn every time we see him, then perhaps this foreshadows Theon killing Ramsay.Thoughts?

In the books, it already seems reasonable that Theon may be the one to kill Ramsay in the end - he apparently has just enough fingers left to operate a bow. I suspect the show may indeed be toying with that idea.

[Dead The Poet]

I read this somewhere else, so it's not my theory, but in Season 2 Theon says "I swear to the the drowned god, old gods, the new gods, to every fucking god that I will kill that man if it is the last thing I do!" This is in regards to the horn-blower outside of Winterfell when it is surrounded. Seeing as how the show's [awesome] Ramsay has been blowing his horn every time we see him, then perhaps this foreshadows Theon killing Ramsay.Thoughts?

That's a pleasant thought. :drunk:

[Winter In My Heart]

As an aside: in the facebook game, which are producing new content the day after each HBO episode, and are produced by game developers who have seen the episode before it airs, and have all the content approved by HBO... well, today for their episode 7 content Talisa asks Kirth (an undercover agent of your character in the game) to

Spoiler

get some herbs for her. I saw that and immediately wondered if it was tansy, as an abortifactant. Is this implying that Talisa is in fact a spy for the Lannisters, and she's planning on aborting Robb's heir?

Also, Talisa's letter can be purchased as an item with intrigue stats.

So if we can make guesses about the books from the show, apparently we can also make guesses about the show from the game.

Really? Does anything else happen in the game after the spoiler part? This now had me wavering and leaning towards she's a spy. (I don't want it to be the case but things are getting harder to deny.)

[Gannicus]

I think we can draw conclusions from the show, but not yet.

We don't know where Talisa ends up or what will happen to her baby.

We don't know where Blackfish will end up

We don't know if Robb will make a will.

We don't know where Gendry will end up

We don't know who Coldhands is yet.

Let's wait a bit longer.

[AGV]

Seeing as to how GRRM is so closely involved with the show, I'm actually thinking that he's deliberately putting in bits of foreshadowing in the show for his last 2 books. Just look at the Talisa pregnancy. Didn't he write "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" episode? So that whole thing just opens up more speculation about whether it was the real Jeyne Westerling that Jamie met after the surrender of Riverrun. Anyways, I think that the show will not really go on a completely different direction as the books. They're just making the storylines more condensed and palatable for TV thus the character and plotline changes. But in the end I think that they will stay true to GRRM's vision.

[Winter In My Heart]

Seeing as to how GRRM is so closely involved with the show, I'm actually thinking that he's deliberately putting in bits of foreshadowing in the show for his last 2 books. Just look at the Talisa pregnancy. Didn't he write "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" episode? So that whole thing just opens up more speculation about whether it was the real Jeyne Westerling that Jamie met after the surrender of Riverrun. Anyways, I think that the show will not really go on a completely different direction as the books. They're just making the storylines more condensed and palatable for TV thus the character and plotline changes. But in the end I think that they will stay true to GRRM's vision.

Martin isn't as closely involved as people think.. Sure he gets to write an episode but he can only do so much what within has already been done in the show. They consult him on things but they don't have to listen. They killed Mago in season one even though he's supposed to be important in book six. As far as Talisa, they could easily have her be pregnant to give more dramatic impact at RW. (Because if it was foreshadowing why on earth are they changing it to where she goes to it?) I don't think they listen to him nearly as much as people think D&D do.

There's only going to be more changes at this point, and only time will tell if they actually do end up staying true to the books.

[Tismoh]

I don't think Mel and Arya have ever meet in the books.

If it's a spoiler it's the weakest one I have ever seen.

Sorry is this has been said. I think it may have been Mel misinterpreting the vision that she will meet "Arya" at the wall. She has been wrong like this before as well.

[Brewmaster]

Martin isn't as closely involved as people think.. Sure he gets to write an episode but he can only do so much what within has already been done in the show. They consult him on things but they don't have to listen. They killed Mago in season one even though he's supposed to be important in book six. As far as Talisa, they could easily have her be pregnant to give more dramatic impact at RW. (Because if it was foreshadowing why on earth are they changing it to where she goes to it?) I don't think they listen to him nearly as much as people think D&D do.

There's only going to be more changes at this point, and only time will tell if they actually do end up staying true to the books.

GRRM never said Mago was important in book six. Only that Mago still lived and would be a returning character in book 6.

[jobmartell]

If this thread is true, if hbo is hinting at future events that we as readers do not and DO NOT WANT TO KNOW about, should we keep watching??? At what point, if this persists, do you stop?