[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[Lyanna Stark]

Actually, I'll say what I please. I don't consider Tyrion a perfect man, but I consider him a good man in the context of Westeros, at least before he reaches Essos.

I'm sure the families in the Vale the newly armed Mountain clans sacked. the Kings Landing families the Mountain Clans sacked, the Antler men given to Joffrey to torture and the singer he stewed agree with you. Not to mention Shae. But this should not be about book Tyrion anyway.

I vote that in the next episode, Tyrion gets a halo and a set of angel wings.

I'm pretty sure his lowest point was when he raped the sex slave in Selhorys.

Tssh tssh, Tyrion is a good man, it was surprise sex only. Didn't you know?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

What horrible and abusive upbringing did Tyrion face in regards to Westeros standards? In how, we get mention of some parents of dwarfs leaving their children out in the wildness to die.

Yet, Tywin didn't abandon Tyrion to die and instead provided him food, shelter, education, and financial support furthermore he always attempted to give a place within greater society by entrusting him with being appointed in control of the Rock's sewers. Acting Hand, and Master of the Coin. Hell, Tywin even arranged for Tyrion one of the most beneficial marriages in the entire realm when forcing Sansa to marry him.

Seems to me if we are to look at this by Westeros Standards, then Tywin was an absolutely great father to Tyrion despite him have understandable reason to hate Tyrion.

Following that logic, Sansa has had it pretty good as well.

Tyrion suffered extreme emotional abuse at the hands of his family, it wasn't horrible by Westerosi standards, but that doesn't diminish the affects of the abuse since Tyrion still carries emotional scars. Tyrion's actions as a result of his abuse may not seem horrible by Westerosi standards, but that doesn't excuse the behaviors. Tyrion's upbringing and his Westerosi sense of morality simply give the reasoning behind his actions, it doesn't excuse his actions. I do not believe that his fans are trying to excuse his "bad" actions, they're simply explaining his reasoning.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

No, she felt what she felt, I am not denying it. But this entire situation was forced on her and she had no time, unlike Tyrion to prepare herself for that. So, she tried to find a good thing in miserable situation, but she couldn`t fight her first instinct - not to kneel. I said it already, she grew up in 2 ways during that wedding, as both she-wolf and a person.

Her wolf is dead due to her own flaws.

And please, will we stop giving him golden star for not raping someone? It seems that this has become perverse way to say that everyone should be complemented for not commiting certain crime.

No, because what you keep calling rape and a crime would not have been considered rape and a crime in Westeros. The way I view that scene, Sansa was willing to "lay back and think of England," because she knew it was her duty. Tyrion knew it was a his right. Yet, he refrained, and in that society, I find that admirable.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I'm pretty sure his lowest point was when he raped the sex slave in Selhorys.

Yes, which hasn't "not" happened yet, and therefore cannot be part of the alleged whitewashing of his character.

[mrs_serpounce]

To other posters who have a different interpretation of characters than you do.

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As I said, your interpretation depends upon other people giving the same weight to his misdeeds as do you. I don't. I don't think he's a paragon of virture, but I do think he's got a better moral compass than most of Westeros.

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I didn't. I just don't see them the same way as you do no matter how hard you stamp your foot.

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That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I see him bedding Sansa as being the expected thing in Westeros, and him refraining from what was his legal right, in a situation in which I think most other lords would have hopped right in, is admirable. You don't.

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You don't seem very good at listening to what other people are saying. I have said he was not perfect, which clearly means he is some shade of gray. But I do think that on the continuum of Westerosi morality, he is more to the good than the bad. You are distorting what I am saying when you pretend otherwise.

Ah, ser, you beat me to it. :bowdown: I haven't seen even the most strenuous Tyrion apologist - yet - say that he's genuinely a perfectly good guy. I'd be shocked at anyone who did (and would definitely have the 'are you mental?' reaction, at that point. But, I think the vast majority of us who are entirely in awe of the outrage have a similar outlook on his shade of gray...

[Guest]

Oh gods, then when he starts molesting her, everyone'll be all "serves her right for abandoning Tyrion".

I really don't think so, because I think they will change it to where Sansa is nabbed by LF - she doesn't have a choice in the going. I think that makes the most sense since they've made Tyrion more appealing.

[Penguin king]

Didn't Tyrion have an innocent person killed? Pretty sure that was his lowest point.

If you're talking about Symon silvertongue,he was trying to blackmail Tyrion with infomation that could have put Shae's life in danger, and he was asking for for Tyrion to beat another singer senseless, so that he could play at Joffrey's wedding. He might not have deserved what he got, but all in all I wouldn't call him innocent.

[Mendoza]

I think he'll spend his time balancing the cheesemonger's books instead of tormenting poor slaves when he gets to that point. The man doesn't just have the heart of Ned, he also has the brains of his father.

[PatrickStormborn]

Yes, which hasn't "not" happened yet, and therefore cannot be part of the alleged whitewashing of his character.

I never said it was part of his whitewashing, but it's evidently his lowest moment (so far).

Alleged? LMFAO. You'd have to be a seriously delluded stan to not realise just how whitewashed Tyrion is. Honestly, if you think book!Tyrion and show!Tyrion are in any way similar, you're can hardly even call yourself a Tyrion fan.

[Guest]

Can we not turn this into a thread about applying 21st century morals to medieval times again? This isn't even really a Tyrion thread, it's a Sansa one. I've said it a million times - you can't isolate Tyrion and judge him, you have to judge the society as a whole for the horrible things it does and encourages others to do.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I'm sure the families in the Vale the newly armed Mountain clans sacked. the Kings Landing families the Mountain Clans sacked, the Antler men given to Joffrey to torture and the singer he stewed agree with you. Not to mention Shae. But this should not be about book Tyrion anyway.

In Westeros, that's what happens with prisoners. We see that on all sides during the War of the Five Kings. The singer blackmailed Tyrion, threatening to expose Shae to Tywin, and we all know what that would have meant for Shae. Symon was not an innocent, so I hope he enjoyed his time as a bow of brown. I don't even blame Tyrion for strangling Shae -- she deliberately gave false witness knowing it would send him to his death. Kind of backfired on da bitch, didn't it?

I vote that in the next episode, Tyrion gets a halo and a set of angel wings.

Well, I just knew there were some people out there trying to whitewash the guy.....

[Penguin king]

I'm sure the families in the Vale the newly armed Mountain clans sacked. the Kings Landing families the Mountain Clans sacked, the Antler men given to Joffrey to torture and the singer he stewed agree with you. Not to mention Shae. But this should not be about book Tyrion anyway.

And I'm sure all the People of the Westerlands who lost their sons at Oxcross, had their cattle stolen and their farms raided would curse the name of Robb Stark.

[Winter's Knight]

If you're refering to raping the sex slave, then yeah, I think that's probably his lowest point, but honestly I think he was as dead inside at that moment as she was. There was no evil or mallice to his behaviour, he was just going through the motions like an automation. Obviously rape is never excusable, but I can't seem to feel anger at one broken person taking advantage of another. The terrible life she must have led I doubt it even registered for her. For Tyrion it was his lifes lowest ebb, for her it was tuesday :(

Intent. Is. Not. Fucking. Magic.

[Lyanna Stark]

Her wolf is dead due to her own flaws.

Yes, he flaws jumped out and killed Lady, just like that. IT had nothing to do with Cersei or Robert, or Ned even, noooo it was Sansa's flaws.

You sir need to read Sansa the Worst Person in Westeros thread just to get something to agree with.

And I'm sure all the People of the Westerlands who lost their sons at Oxcross, had their cattle stolen and their farms raided would curse the name of Robb Stark.

Yes, they most likely do. Your point?

[Minsc]

Following that logic, Sansa has had it pretty good as well.

Tyrion suffered extreme emotional abuse at the hands of his family, it wasn't horrible by Westerosi standards, but that doesn't diminish the affects of the abuse since Tyrion still carries emotional scars. Tyrion's actions as a result of his abuse may not seem horrible by Westerosi standards, but that doesn't excuse the behaviors. Tyrion's upbringing and his Westerosi sense of morality simply give the reasoning behind his actions, it doesn't excuse his actions. I do not believe that his fans are trying to excuse his "bad" actions, they're simply explaining his reasoning.

Seeing how the logic that I was addressing argued just that, but I forget when it comes to justify Tyrion we should look at things like how they were in Westeros. But, when it comes to sympathizing with Tyrion it once again shifts to a modern viewpoint.

[mrs_serpounce]

I vote that in the next episode, Tyrion gets a halo and a set of angel wings.

Tssh tssh, Tyrion is a good man, it was surprise sex only. Didn't you know?

Okay, so I have a question. When so many people on this forum are actually admitting that Tyrion is quite heavily on the greyscale spectrum, and not saying that Tyrion requires a halo, a set of angel wings, and that he's a "good man," what do we have to say to stop being bashed, here?

I have never for a second thought that Tyrion was Ned 2.0. Not even in the show. Tyrion does bad stuff. Do we need to stop saying he does good stuff, too?

IMNSHO the real beauty of ASoIaF is the fact that Martin explores the entire spectrum of the gray scale, and the concept that, as he says, bad men can good things and good men can do bad things. Just like Penguin King, I actually enjoy watching characters that are morally conflicted evolve. It makes for great reading. And that, overall, I think, is the biggest strength of the series. YMMV. But as someone who sees both sides of Tyrion, I'm wondering when people are going to actually hear the fact that I'm saying that at best, the dude is gray through and through.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Oh, okay, I got confused then :)

It's okay. Just remember, I'm on your side. I believe that Tyrion is the epitome of the "gray" character, and that's why I love him. He is a joy to read, and makes me questions a lot of things.

[Zman1863]

I really don't think so, because I think they will change it to where Sansa is nabbed by LF - she doesn't have a choice in the going. I think that makes the most sense since they've made Tyrion more appealing.

I don't know, I think that circumstances in the show are ripe to make the escape look more like it actually does in the books. In the show she now thinks all possibility of LF taking her is gone. At this time in the books she never even knew LF was in the picture. So we are at essentially the same place. She has to have some sort of involvement with an escape plot if the PW is going to occur the same way with the same people involved.

[mrunderhill]

I (and the other poster, I suppose) didn't mean that scene wasn't in the TV series; it was there and has been brilliantly executed. I will remember Sansa's face, with her determined look and a trickle of blood on her lip, for long. I only meant: where is that Sansa now? I know she perhaps felt off the hook for a while after her betrohdal to Joffrey has been lifted, but she seems too much a comfortable guest in KL than a prisoner.

Ok.

Again I think we have to see the difference between the show Tyrion and the book one. Tyrion is a victim in this to. Sansa lashing out at the another victim, even if her emotions are justified would make her look bad to the TV audience.

[Lyanna Stark]

In Westeros, that's what happens with prisoners. We see that on all sides during the War of the Five Kings. The singer blackmailed Tyrion, threatening to expose Shae to Tywin, and we all know what that would have meant for Shae. Symon was not an innocent, so I hope he enjoyed his time as a bow of brown. I don't even blame Tyrion for strangling Shae -- she deliberately gave false witness knowing it would send him to his death. Kind of backfired on da bitch, didn't it?

Good grief, you do need to read the novels again.

I am also glad you think a girl who mocks a man and sleeps with someone else deserves death. The domestic abuse victims clearly deserve getting beaten black and blue and strangled for you know, mocking and being unfaithful.

As everyone knows, Shae's testimony meant little as she was lowborn. The highborn witnesses counted, Shae was only there to humiliate. But apparently humiliation is worthy of death, no? Shame, shame on Shae.

Even if according to you, that mocking, unfaithful Shae deserved death, and to be fair, Simon Silvertoungue could possibly maybe have been a threat one day, what about the Mountain Clans, the Vale families and the Antler men? I guess some people are just born to be cannon fodder so nobody can blame Tyrion for that, right?

Well, I just knew there were some people out there trying to whitewash the guy.....

Considering that show!Tyrion is so different from book!Tyrion now as to be totally unrecognisable, why not? TV shows needs "good" guy to be a hero, and you have just proclaimed how good Tyrion is. Nevermind that book!Tyrion is far more interesting and conflicted because he is not just "a good guy", but who cares about those things these days? The most important thing is that show!Tyrion isn't doing anything wrong.