[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[SerMixalot]

She didn't smile as she was following Tyrion to their quarters. She had a look of worry on her face. There's still considerable opportunity to demonstrate her strength and intelligence, the act of kneeling in order to assist Tyrion doesn't detract from that.

yeah like this season was supposed to be about Arya's transformation into an assasin.

[SerMixalot]

Surprising that people are complaining about Sansa kneeling since that part loses so much from not being able to be inside her head. I don't see how they could make that come across the way it is in the books and it seems incredibly weird to not take into account how very different the TV medium is when you analyze this. On TV it would do nothing but enhance the bad situation for Tyrion, it wouldn't be Sansa making a stand (no pun intended) in her bad situation for people that haven't read the books.

People's inability to really look at the differences in the two mediums and being far too bound to the original seem to really lower the chances for them to enjoy this. Too bad for them but it's entirely up to themselves what they want to do.

Nonsese, if they didnt white wash Tyrion, make his just another Lannister, they could have focused on Sansa's face, tears streaming down her cheeks while Tyrion tugs at her dress. While having to go get a stool to put the cloak on.

and where were the invocation of the 7?

[Penguin king]

Ok, Can't think of anything specific to do with the episode, but some general points

1) D&D's take on Sansa

Sansa is a difficult character to translate to television, because so much of what we learn about her comes from what's she's thinking. Outwardly she's general a model of calm courtesy,even though we know the emotions she's feeling and the thoughts that are going through her head are a lot more complex. Jon Snow suffers from the same problem, being another character that doesn't always say what he's thinking.

That's not to say D&D have made the best of a difficult character to write for. By cutting a lot of the Hound and Dontos scenes Sansa's character has missed out on some important character development, and her replacement scenes with Shae, Littlefinger and Maraery haven't always been of the highest quality. When they make Sansa voice questions such as "will my family be allowed to the wedding?" she seems naive and childish. She has a healthy fantasy life in the books too, but she knows the difference between her dreams and reality, and while she fantasies about her ideal life with Wilas, she's also aware that all he would want her for his her claim on Winterfell. TV Sansa lacks that sort of complexity.

2) Tyrion is not Sansa's enemy.

A lot of people have been arguing that since Sansa is a Stark and tyrion is a Lannister the two must be enemies, and Sansa is right to treat him as such. I don't see it that way. Tyrion wishes no harm on Sansa. he's never harmed another member of her family, He may have fought against Robb's men in battle, but that doesn't mean he and Sansa have to treat each other adversarially. I understand why she'd be weary of him considering all the wrongs Cersei, Joffrey andTywin have done to her, but hurting Tyrion doesn't hurt the rest of his family. I don't expect her to come to love him, but I don't feel she'd be right to hate him either

3) Forced marriages and Arranged marriages

The line here is a lot greyer than people think. Show Sansa concented to marry Loras I can agree. She was infatuated with him and her choice seemed genuine, however I don't feel that the same can be said for her book counterpart and Willas. Sansa did not know Wilas, she had no preexisting desire to marry him, at first she even seemed crestfallen by the idea, but marrying Willas was a price. A price she had to pay if she wanted to be free from Joffrey and Cersei. She may have given her consent, and even talked herself into liking the idea, but you can't deny there was a large element of coersion. Marry Willas and have your freedom, or stay here and get beaten/raped/worse. is that really any better a choice than the Lannisters were offering her?

Another example. Lysa Tully and Jon Arryn. Clearly an arranged marriage, but a loveless one. Lysa may have consented to her father's will, however the marriage was still a loveless one. Hoster Tully had driven away the boy she truely loved, and had even forced her to abort the bastard child she was carrying. Was Lysa's situation any fairer than Sansa's? Was Lysa any happier after the marriage? Did she really have that much more of a choice?

[Fragile Bird]

Don't need to patronice. What I meant to say was that might be some who have no problem IF such a scene exists.

You don't need to be so prickly, and you need to read responses. I said, Sansa is 14 in the HBO scene. She answers Tyrion's question. A scene with her naked in bed would amount to child pornography in many of the countries the show is seen, whether or not the characters are married. In what way would showing nude scenes with Arya and Gendry be possible, pray tell? We are discussing the HBO tv series here, not the books, and irrespective of all the shipping of Arya and Gendry, no way would they show that beyond the schoolgirl crush kind of conversation Arya and Gendry have just before his departure. And, since you obviously have read the Arya/Gendry ship posts, you also know pretty well everyone talks about "when they are older", because a 4 year age difference when you are 11 is significant. And those who contemplate an 11 year old and a 15 year in a relationship aren't talking about a sexual relationship.

[Demandred]

yeah like this season was supposed to be about Arya's transformation into an assasin.

There's plenty of time for Arya's transformation too so I don't see your point. Arya's biggest blow is about to happen in the next episode and then she starts her descent and starts to shut herself off.

[Mulled Wino]

Could someone elaborate on the Tyrion whitewashing? I've finished the books but can't think of any major misdeeds they've cut.

how about participating in the gang rape of his first wife he allegedly loved?

[Joyful Union]

yeah like this season was supposed to be about Arya's transformation into an assasin.

I dont think it was. Arya doesnt even kill anyone in the first half of SoS as far as I can remember.

[Master Forel's Fro]

how about participating in the gang rape of his first wife he allegedly loved?

He was 13 his father told him that was Normal

[Mulled Wino]

There's plenty of time for Arya's transformation too so I don't see your point. Arya's biggest blow is about to happen in the next episode and then she starts her descent and starts to shut herself off.

That's when you think arya starts her descent?

we get 4 theon torture scenes and 2 minutes of arya and sandor that just shows sandor as a nice guy.

There's always "plenty of time". They had plenty of time to do a good rw story and that didnt work out so well.

[SerMixalot]

Book Arya goes through a series of incidents where she loses her identity, she is called by a series of different names, confused for a boy and a girl, dressed in a variety of outfits, takes on a series of different roles-many quite humble roles, she kills to escape Harrenhall. All of these things give her the basic skills to be a FM.

[Mulled Wino]

He was 13 his father told him that was Normal

lmao.....ok. 13 and married.

I think people sell 13yr olds waaaaaay short on these boards. Especially the tyrion apologists. Arya is about 10 so maybe giving him a pass cuz he was 13 should be reconsidered. 13 yr olds in love (allegedly) I think can recognize when said loved one (allegedly) is being tortured.

[Sansa in the North]

He was 13 his father told him that was Normal

If my father told be that was normal I'd call bullshit. Tyrion, even at 13, should really be able to think for himself. And, based on his descriptions of the incident, I think he was able to do that and he knew very well what he was doing to Tysha. That said, he was still a victim in this situation. But he was the abuser, too. He was both.

But this is off topic again. I don't want to get in trouble over this. Maybe there should be a separate thread or something.

[Master Forel's Fro]

lmao.....ok. 13 and married.

I think people sell 13yr olds waaaaaay short on these boards. Especially the tyrion apologists. Arya is about 10 so maybe giving him a pass cuz he was 13 should be reconsidered. 13 yr olds in love (allegedly) I think can reckognize when said loved one (allegedly) is being tortured.

I was being sarcastic, after his father and brother tell him that she's a whore he participates in a way punishing her too for lying to him, he hates being mocked and he saw it like she was making fun of him even if he later regreted it.

[juanml82]

Here's another of my problems with the wedding. So much of it was about Cersei resisting the things going on around her instead of Sansa doing this. Cersei is the Queen Regent, Sansa is a hostage but you'd hardly remember that in this episode. What happened to the Sansa who told Joffrey that maybe her brother would bring her his head or the Sansa who wanted to push Joffrey off the ledge?

She was beaten by the kingsguard.

I didn't go through all the 12 pages. I liked when Sansa didn't kneel in the books, but I think having her kneel works better in the show: she wasn't physically trying to get away like in the books (and the not-kneeling being the last of her physical resistance), there is no Dontos so Tyrion doesn't have many other ways to put the cloak and Joffrey's presence is a reminder of what will happen if she resists.

We know she is there against her will. Joffrey also reminds us that she's against the marriage because he's a Lannister, so nothing to nitpick there. The only nitpick I have is that she wasn't wearing Stark colours when she walked into the sept, but the show never mentioned House colours save for Tyrell green.

I liked Sansa and Tyrion arc this episode. Not the character's greatest moments, but no idiocy either

[nirolo]

lmao.....ok. 13 and married.

I think people sell 13yr olds waaaaaay short on these boards. Especially the tyrion apologists. Arya is about 10 so maybe giving him a pass cuz he was 13 should be reconsidered. 13 yr olds in love (allegedly) I think can reckognize when said loved one (allegedly) is being tortured.

This is true. Jon had the balls to stand up to Alliser Thorne when he was only fourteen even though he wasn't even remotely in love with Sam...

...or was it love of first sight?

[Mulled Wino]

I was being sarcastic, after his father and brother tell him that she's a whore he participates in a way punishing her too for lying to him, he hates being mocked and he saw it like she was making fun of him even if he later regreted it.

I guess I was sensitive because someone actually used that argument last week! Hating being mocked and gang raping because of it certainly is an example if they greying of his character.

But this might be the wrong thread

[Mulled Wino]

This is true. Jon had the balls to stand up to Alliser Thorne when he was only fourteen even though he wasn't even remotely in love with Sam...

...or was it love of first sight?

Love at first sight, clearly.

[Master Forel's Fro]

This is true. Jon had the balls to stand up to Alliser Thorne when he was only fourteen even though he wasn't even remotely in love with Sam...

...or was it love of first sight?

Who was it that said Sam was curvy enough that the men might not care he's a boy, allister?

[nirolo]

Who was it that said Sam was curvy enough that the men might not care he's a boy, allister?

Can't recall.

But Chett did fantasize about sticking his sword down Sam's throat.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I was being sarcastic, after his father and brother tell him that she's a whore he participates in a way punishing her too for lying to him, he hates being mocked and he saw it like she was making fun of him even if he later regreted it.

I got the sense that Tyrion was pretty badly scarred by what happened to Tysha, and in particular his participation in that. But he was just 13, abused by a warped father, and in the midst of a hundred soldiers. And in a culture where, though wrong, it certainly wasn't illegal to do that. The problem is that if you take that Tysha scene as it happened, and present it to modern-era viewers who aren't immersed in the culture and background of Westeros the way readers are, the reaction to Tyrion is likely to be far more negative that the written story contemplates, and he would be a much, much worse character.

My personal take on the Tysha scene was that it was horrible abuse by Tywin of both Tysha and a very young Tyrion.