Continued Stannis Character Assasination [Book and TV Spoilers]

[Lord of Castamere]

And so the heroes fall.. I think the show is giving us a more humane view of Stannis. No one in real life can be as one dimensional as book Stannis.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Yes how could i forget white washing! Don't get the Stannis thing either but then again I don't get any of the people who are committed to one character.

You brought up Mary Sue though. I had totally forgotten about it, and I laughed out loud!

[WTFSalami]

did he? I thought Mel did that.

Two to tango.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

Is it just me or was the actor playing Stannis doing a half-smile while talking? Book Stannis was serious and grim, TV Stannis just seems arrogant to me.

[Kienn]

Yea believing you're the one true god personified isn't arrogant at all...

[ckongo]

Who convinces Stannis to go to the Wall? Who convinces Stannis to leave Mel behind at Blackwater? Who convinces Stannis to go the Hill Clansemen and not the Dreadfort? Etc... Book Stannis is always listening to good council from honest men. Mostly Davos and later Jon Snow.

He's always been someone who needs a push in the right direction.

It's different here. Stannis can be swayed, but in that scene he is saying one thing but wants another. If he truly did not agree he would just say so, unafraid to speak his mind. Book Stannis was always direct, never doing double talk. This "what are you waiting for, get on with it" and then running to Davos to change his mind is not the mentality of book Stannis.

[Oakenfist]

this.

they are ruining his character and people who disagree are either non book readers or they don't like or understand Stannis.

it took exactly half of ASOS for him to ultimately consider sacrificing Edric , half of ASOS!!!

he refused Mel multiple times . he was suffering for half a book to make the right decision , agonizing moments of doubt , dilemmas and conflictions of priorities .

it was the hardest decision , he had ever made.

you can see some of these quotes that explain it:

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“I have told you, no.”

“He is only one baseborn boy, against all the boys of Westeros, and all the girls as well. Against all the children that might ever be born, in all the kingdoms of the world.”

“The boy is innocent.”

“The boy defiled your marriage bed, else you would surely have sons of your own. He shamed you.”

“Robert did that. Not the boy. My daughter has grown fond of him. And he is mine own blood.”

“Your brother’s blood,” Melisandre said. “A king’s blood. Only a king’s blood can wake the stone dragon.”

Stannis ground his teeth. “I’ll hear no more of this.

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“Edric -” he started.

“ - is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty.

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“Your Grace,” said Davos, “the cost. .

“I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning... burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?”

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“I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty... If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark... Sacrifice... is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."

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Seek help. This show isn't going to spend half a season with Stannis thinking about killing Gendry. I cant believe youre even suggesting such a thing. Be realistic and pull your head out of Stannis' ass.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

Yea believing you're the one true god personified isn't arrogant at all...

I'm far from a Stannis fan and believe he has many negative traits, but in the books he was never arrogant, not like in the show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7g6lIyWzrA

Watch from 3:35 on. This is NOT Stannis.

[Sand11751]

Stannis is a self-righteous prig. He only sees things his way. For him, there can only be one butt warming the Iron Throne - his. And he'll deal with shadow babies, leeches and whatever else to achieve that single-minded purpose. I could almost admire his tenacity if it hadn't led to some of the more awful events in the war between kings.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

Stannis is a self-righteous prig. He only sees things his way. For him, there can only be one butt warming the Iron Throne - his. And he'll deal with shadow babies, leeches and whatever else to achieve that single-minded purpose. I could almost admire his tenacity if it hadn't led to some of the more awful events in the war between kings.

I agree, but in the show he has an arrogant smile. "She will sacrifice him [half-smile]!" "What is one bastard against a kingdom [smile]?"

I was rooting for Renly in WotFK and hated Stannis so much in the second book I rooted for Joff in the battle of Blackwater, but this is not how Stannis would act and talk. The man never smiled and now he is smiling when talking about sacrificing his nephew? Just no.

[Thelastactionhero]

I agree, but in the show he has an arrogant smile. "She will sacrifice him [half-smile]!" "What is one bastard against a kingdom [smile]?"

I was rooting for Renly in WotFK and hated Stannis so much in the second book I rooted for Joff in the battle of Blackwater, but this is not how Stannis would act and talk. The man never smiled and now he is smiling when talking about sacrificing his nephew? Just no.

This is exactly why I was turned off to the scene initially. That fucking smile. The stoicism of the character has been replaced by arrogance. How can I connect with this internal conflict, this boiling inner turmoil within Stannis as to whether or not he should sacrifice and innocent for the greater good if he's wearing this cocky smile and talking about this serious dilemma in such a nonchalant way? It's been brought up that Stannis is playing devil's advocate because he wants Davos to argue for mercy, but I think this could have been handled better. And also the whole "tavern slut" line felt a little out of character. Not that Stannis is anykind of feminist, but he also doesn't normally go out of his way to degrade women either. I can't help but feel that the unyielding stoicism has been layered with one too many sprinkles of dickishness, and its made him harder to enjoy as a character.

[jmk51]

It's amusing that everyone suspends everything they know about society to try to figure out what's "moral" and "just" about a place that's all about the strong over the weak, and bizarre hereditary laws. Feudalism - not cool.

[mediterraneo]

I just have to say, that while I think its important to take the show and the book as two autonomous works of art, I am highly disatisfied with this simplified portrayal of Stannis. Whether or not you like him as a character in the books, he is far more complex and three-dimensional than he is in this television series. His immediate willingness to sacrifice Gendry was such a let down for me. There wasn't even a split second of conflict. Stannis was adamantly opposed to burning Edric initially and was only convinced when he believed there was absolutely no other option to save the kingdom. Here, Stannis has little to no regard for Gendry's life, and it just felt to me like the writers were purposely ignoring the source material in order to further establish him as villain. Unlike the books, where we have the proper space for us to contemplate Stannis' character and moral ambiguity, the series creates a narrow spectrum in which he can only be viewed as an entitled douchebag. If you're going to make deviations in a character arc, you should maintain the complexity of said characters, rather than simplify them in order to force you're own views down the throats of the audience.

Well, I'm a notorious Stannis hater and (Jaime) Lannister fanboy in the books threads.

Here I come to say that, since episode 3x05, I start understanding Stannis a bit more, his TV self and his book self as well.

It is something about it similar to what happened me with Cersei. Some simplification in the TV show helped me to notice details that were always there in the books as well.

I'm still a Stannis hater, but now... Well, i felt piety for him, and the quiet horrors of the familiar life he lives, alone. Everybody would end up seeing things in the fire, living like that. Maybe not everybody would burn people for that, but that's a completely different matter.

No, I definitely don't feel Stannis is plain and has been "character assassinated" in the tv show.

[Toxspecific]

First, they butcher Stannis. Then they redeem his character development. Then they butcher it again. Then they redeem it again. I mean what the hell are they doing?

No, I definitely don't feel Stannis is plain and has been "character assassinated" in the tv show

Being openly horny over Melisandre, saying words like 'Tavern slut', how the hell can anybody not think that this is un-Stannis like?

[Champion of Light]

I agree, but in the show he has an arrogant smile. "She will sacrifice him [half-smile]!" "What is one bastard against a kingdom [smile]?"

I was rooting for Renly in WotFK and hated Stannis so much in the second book I rooted for Joff in the battle of Blackwater, but this is not how Stannis would act and talk. The man never smiled and now he is smiling when talking about sacrificing his nephew? Just no.

Stannis is adopting a nonchalent attitude at first because he is in fact uncomfortable with the situation in which he's and Davos knows that. It's a normal human reaction, when you're unconfortable with something you try sometimes to show the opposite. He's no more smilling that way when Davos is speaking to him, he even seems affected by his words.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And so the heroes fall.. I think the show is giving us a more humane view of Stannis. No one in real life can be as one dimensional as book Stannis.

We don't have his pov to know how conflicted he's inside about everything, we only see four people's pov about him: Mel, who thinks he's a god reborn (literally, almost), Jon, who is probably the most neutral, Davos, who despite what people think, is not completely biased because he knows that the reason Stannis wants him around is because he has doubts and Maester Cressen, who has known him since he was a child.

Stannis is a man who projects a image and people - even readers - judge him based on that image: severe, plain, stubborn. But Maester Cresser knew he is a man who has been hurt a lot; Davos knows that while he's fair, he feels conflicted about big decisions and those are the men who know him the most. Mel, otoh, doesn't know him that well.

[Thelastactionhero]

We don't have his pov to know how conflicted he's inside about everything, we only see four people's pov about him: Mel, who thinks he's a god reborn (literally, almost), Jon, who is probably the most neutral, Davos, who despite what people think, is not completely biased because he knows that the reason Stannis wants him around is because he has doubts and Maester Cressen, who has known him since he was a child.

Stannis is a man who projects a image and people - even readers - judge him based on that image: severe, plain, stubborn. But Maester Cresser knew he is a man who has been hurt a lot; Davos knows that while he's fair, he feels conflicted about big decisions and those are the men who know him the most. Mel, otoh, doesn't know him that well.

You forgot the Asha chapters bro.

[gibbles545]

They have got the Davos interactions with Stannis quite well, except for him being named hand in season 2 rather than after Davos defies Stannis to save Edric/Gendry.

Whereas to me the Stannis and Melisandre scenes have been more of a disapointment, with him coming of as more emotionaly attached to Melisandre than the book Stannis.

Despite this I liked the episode thought his internal struggle came of quite well, although I will miss his quite about his claim to the iron throne and it not being a question of wanting it but of duty.

[Thelastactionhero]

They have got the Davos interactions with Stannis quite well, except for him being named hand in season 2 rather than after Davos defies Stannis to save Edric/Gendry.

Whereas to me the Stannis and Melisandre scenes have been more of a disapointment, with him coming of as more emotionaly attached to Melisandre than the book Stannis.

Despite this I liked the episode thought his internal struggle came of quite well, although I will miss his quite about his claim to the iron throne and it not being a question of wanting it but of duty.

For some reason the delivery from Dillane, which I liked up until this season, comes off to me as him rationalizing his desire for the throne with delusions duty rather than his rigid sense of duty and moral code being the foundation for his unrelenting struggle to become king. There's nothing about him having a duty to become king for the sake of his daughter, (though this could come later) lines that gave him a benevolent edge. I realize one can interpret Stannis as being a slighted, delusional man in the original text, but there is room in the original source material, and plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise, whereas I can't help but feel when I'm watching that Stannis is an entitled asshole who doesn't care about the fate of the realm so much as his own selfish desires.

[Dragonstoned]

Thought this episode went some way to redeeming Stannis's moral character? By having Davos say that Stannis believes the same as him.

The problems with the scene were i) Stephen Dillane's portrayal which is much less good in s3 than it was in s2 - his delivery is often leery and he doesn't come across as detached enough or 'iron'-like, and ii) that his faith in R'hllor is exaggerated, asking how Davos can deny the Red God is real, while Davos's faith in the Seven is strangely underplayed with him supposing parents made up the gods to make their children feel safe.

Also wanted the 'What is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?' -- 'Everything'.