Moments of Foreshadowing 5

[Viserys_The Transformed]

The Starks and the dragons....

Dany wondering what would happen to her if she died (aDwD),

In Westeros the dead of House Targaryen were given to the flames, but who would light her pyre here? My flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows, she thought sadly, and worms will burrow through my womb. Her eyes went back to Dragonstone. It looked smaller. She could see smoke rising from its wind-carved summit, miles away.

Daenerys reflecting on the book Jorah gives her,

Dragons are fire made flesh. She had read that in one of the books Ser Jorah had given her as a wedding gift.

Dany is Nissa Nissa.... It is known :-)

[Newstar]

My flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows, she thought sadly

OMG, the Starks and the Night's Watch are going to feast on Dany's dead body! :D

And people still seriously think Dany's a hero or going to be one? Kind of curious that the heroine has a triumvirate of links -- based on language or action or both -- to people who are unambiguously villainous in Westeros.

Hard to know. GRRM seems awfully cagey from what I recall when people bring up Dany's incompetence and more questionable actions in ADWD and seemed to suggest at least once that her main problem was her inexperience and a lack of good advice, rather than something deeper or more sinister. Maybe it's a Cat/Sansa-in-AGOT-type situation, where he intended the character to be viewed as flawed but ultimately sympathetic, but many readers had a rather different reaction and wrote the character off as a result.

So assuming GRRM doesn't intend the parallels to signal some sort of deeper Ramsay/Dany link (and I agree that that's not clear at this stage), one might explain it by noting that context matters. Vargo cut off Jaime's hand, and Stannis cut off Davos' fingers. The act is (somewhat) the same--although Jaime would have been equally disabled as a swordsman by the loss of his fingers--but the circumstances make us react to the former very differently than we react to the latter. Both Ramsay and Dany order that their captives be tortured for information (although I suppose questioning someone "sharply" might not involve Bolton-level torture), but the circumstances might lead readers to view them differently, just as we don't equate Vargo crippling Jaime with Stannis crippling Davos, even though the end result is the same.

[tze]

Elements of the combined fate the three "pie" Freys would ultimately suffer at White Harbor can be found in each of their names. Rhaegar Targaryen died at the river Trident, and Rhaegar Frey is killed by Wyman Manderly, a man heavily associated with rivers in general (the Mander) and tridents in particular. Symon Silver-Tongue ended up getting eaten in a bowl of brown, just like Symond Frey got eaten in a pie. And I never noticed this, but look at how Alliser Thorne misspeaks when he presents Jafar Flowers's hand to Tyrion in King's Landing:

“They were dead the first time,” Ser Alliser snapped. “Pale and cold, with black hands and feet. I brought Jared’s hand, torn from his corpse by the bastard’s wolf.”

The third ingredient in Wyman Manderly's masterpiece was Jared Frey. At first I thought the Jared/Jafar thing was a typo, but Thorne's "misidentification" of this dead man to the power brokers in King's Landing actually does an excellent job of foreshadowing the role Davos would later play in Wyman Manderly's Frey-centric ruse. Jafar/"Jared"'s dead hand was ripped off by Jon's direwolf and misidentified to King's Landing, and Davos Seaworth, a Hand, was imprisoned in the Wolf's Den, built long ago by King Jon Stark, while Manderly played out his ruse (misidentifying a dead man) to the Freys, and through them, the power brokers in King's Landing.

Ser Ryam Redwyne---Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, "the greatest knight of his day, and one of the worst Hands ever to serve a king"---looks to be the historical analogue for Ser Barristan, thus foreshadowing Barristan's tenure (and likely, his ultimate failure) as Hand.

The historical Queen Nymeria wouldn't have really been a "queen" at all, would she? She would have been a Princess. While ruling on the Rhoyne, she would have held the title "Princess", and as the current rulers of Dorne use the Prince/Princess title specifically because that was the Rhoynish title, presumably Nymeria would have been considered a "princess" even after marrying Mors Martell---as if she'd declared herself a Queen (or even had Mors declared himself a King) in Dorne, it would make no sense for their children to then adopt a "lesser" (in the Westerosi context) title. If "Nymeria" foreshadows someone being a Queen in name only, that could foreshadow the fate of a number of characters. The direwolf Nymeria would, like Arya and like the historical Nymeria, be a "princess" still (in that she owes wolfly fealty to Ghost?), though at first glance she may look like a Queen in the Riverlands. That could also be a hint about Dany's future status (or Aegon's, given his association with the Rhoynar and his potential future marriage to a Martell) in Westeros.

Not only do I take this as strong foreshadowing of what will become of Jon at the Wall, I also think it's a warning of sorts against taking any dragon-hatching prophecies too literally, both within the story itself and outside the story where readers are concerned.

I think Daemon II Blackfyre's vision also indicates how visions interpreted as showing "victory" can actually indicate defeat, as Daemon thought he was seeing elements of his victory, but he was actually seeing elements associated with his defeat (the true future King, Egg, "hatching", Dunk as Egg's Kingsguard and not Daemon's). It specifically reminds me of Dany's dream of fighting the ice-armored army on dragonback at the Trident, because that's one dream where she thinks she's seeing her victory, but

Valena Toland's description of how the Dornishmen defeated the dragonriding Targs strikes me as particularly relevant:

"A dragon eating its own tail, aye," Valena said. "From the days of Aegon’s Conquest. He did not conquer here. Elsewhere he burned his foes, him and his sisters, but here we melted away before them, leaving only stone and sand for them to burn.

When an army "melts away" before a dragon, the dragon loses. Dany sees an army melting away before her on dragonback, and assumes this symbol of defeat to be a symbol of victory, just as Daemon II Blackfyre saw his defeat and misinterpreted it as his victory.

[barristan] stood beside the parapets of the highest step of the Great Pyramid, searching the sky as he did every morning, knowing that the dawn must come and hoping that his queen would come with it. She will not have abandoned us, she would never leave her people, he was telling himself, when he heard the prince’s death rattle coming from the queen’s apartments

Perhaps there are some hints here relevant to the Dany/PTWP debate? It is while Barristan is wishing for Dany to come with the dawn to save them all that he hears "the prince's death rattle", perhaps symbolizing the "death" of the hope that Dany will be the PTWP.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Daemon II Blackfyre's vision also indicates how visions interpreted as showing "victory" can actually indicate defeat, as Daemon thought he was seeing elements of his victory, but he was actually seeing elements associated with his defeat (the true future King, Egg, "hatching", Dunk as Egg's Kingsguard and not Daemon's). It specifically reminds me of Dany's dream of fighting the ice-armored army on dragonback at the Trident, because that's one dream where she thinks she's seeing her victory, but

Valena Toland's description of how the Dornishmen defeated the dragonriding Targs strikes me as particularly relevant:

When an army "melts away" before a dragon, the dragon loses. Dany sees an army melting away before her on dragonback, and assumes this symbol of defeat to be a symbol of victory, just as Daemon II Blackfyre saw his defeat and misinterpreted it as his victory.

Perhaps there are some hints here relevant to the Dany/PTWP debate? It is while Barristan is wishing for Dany to come with the dawn to save them all that he hears "the prince's death rattle", perhaps symbolizing the "death" of the hope that Dany will be the PTWP.

The "melting" thing is a super clever catch, especially since "Dany sees a vision of herself winning" is so annoyingly prevalent an idea on here. This also sort of reminds me of Melisandre seeing Renly taking King's Landing. Even though she recognized it to be a vision of defeat, not victory, it still ended up coming to pass as an event of (Stannis's) defeat, not victory.

And the play on words with dawn/prince/hope is also intriguing.

[J. Stargaryen]

FireEater

I too have wondered over the raven pecking into the shell and notice it says pulling out the white and the yolk ( White and yellow or gold) which made me think about Viserion the white and gold dragon hatching. Perhaps BR opening that dragon's third eye or he is now able to control that dragon which appears more intelligent in the story.

Notice similarities in Bran's chapter. pg. 196 aCoK

Bran chapter is similar to the raven pecking the shell above. ... and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again.

I also noticed that somewhere Patchface speaks of green, blue, black flames under the sea. I am not sure what color Viserion's flames would look like under the sea..possible that it would appear blue? I need to find that phrase.

We know that the Dance of the Dragons was fought between two factions otherwise known as the blacks and greens. We're on the verge of that happening again supposedly, with Dany and Aegon.

That would still leave the color blue to be explained. Since green and black are tied to dragons both literally and figuratively, then the blue ought to be as well. It just so happens that Jon Snow is heavily associated with the color blue, via winter roses.

[Ice and fire freak]

Sorry for butting in but have to say a well done to everyone on this thread I'm awe,makes you realise just why these books take so long to make and cannot be rushed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We know that the Dance of the Dragons was fought between two factions otherwise known as the blacks and greens. We're on the verge of that happening again supposedly, with Dany and Aegon.

That would still leave the color blue to be explained. Since green and black are tied to dragons both literally and figuratively, then the blue ought to be as well. It just so happens that Jon Snow is heavily associated with the color blue, via winter roses.

Yes I thought of Jon and the blue rose too when I saw the black, blue and green flame thing.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I don't always play Fire Eater, but when I do, I say that the info on Rhaenys and Meraxes comes from the World of Ice and Fire book info that's already been released.

Ah, thank you.

For some odd reason I thought the quote didn't come from the link provided. I must learn to read better. :blushing:

[Fire Eater]

We know that the Dance of the Dragons was fought between two factions otherwise known as the blacks and greens. We're on the verge of that happening again supposedly, with Dany and Aegon.

That would still leave the color blue to be explained. Since green and black are tied to dragons both literally and figuratively, then the blue ought to be as well. It just so happens that Jon Snow is heavily associated with the color blue, via winter roses.

To add to that Moqorro is also called the "black flame", and he has thrown in with Dany.

"And what lesson can we draw from Volantene history?"

"If you want to conquer the world, you best have dragons."

Tyrion could not help but laugh.

Tyrion laughing does seem appropriate since later the joke's on Aegon. Aegon forgets that lesson, and goes to conquer Westeros without dragons. Tyrion ends up with the dragons on Dany's side in the upcoming DoD 2.0.

[Claire Stark]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but in Arya's very first chapter, she makes a joke about "a wolf with a fish in its mouth." In ASoS, she is warging Nymeria when the latter pulls Catelyn's body from the river.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I can't believe I hadn't noticed this before, especially with our Food Code thread, but better late than never.

One of Meereen's biggest non-slave trades is in olives and olive products like oil. Before Dany sacked the city, the nobles burned the olive trees in a scorched-earth tactic.

When Xaro visits Dany -- a meeting that ends with him saying he should have killed her in Qarth and Qarth declaring war on Dany -- he tells her that he will take all of the olives and olive oil she's willing to sell. Dany says she has none to offer him and that they're trying to replant the trees but it will take years before they start to bear fruit and decades before they can be truly productive.

Harry Strickland tells Griff and Co. that Dany seems more intent on planting olive trees than in reclaiming the throne. Dany and her olives end up being sort of a running joke in the exchange.

When Dany eats breakfast on the day she marries Hizdahr, she's nibbling on an olive that Missandei has brought her while she makes the final deliberation to go ahead with the marriage.

When Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea, she thinks that dragons plant no trees; the only trees she's been planting lately are olive trees.

Traditionally, in our own world, olive trees represent peace and diplomacy. Extending the olive branch and whatnot.

1. The Meereenese destroying the olive trees demonstrates that the opportunity for any peace here has been destroyed.

2. Xaro's offer to buy olive products — symbolically indicative of his willingness to negotiate and work with Dany — and Dany's subsequent inability to sell them to him because they're unavailable demonstrate the end of peace between Dany and Qarth.

3. Likewise, the note about the olive trees taking decades to become productive shows that peace in Meereen will not happen overnight, but will take a very, very long time, if it happens at all.

4. The Golden Company's take that Dany would rather plant olive trees than win back the Iron Throne demonstrates that at this moment, her head is in Meereen trying to make some sort of peace.

5. Dany marries Hizdahr to secure peace in the city. Note that she's nibbling the olive, the peace symbol, right before she decides to go through with it after all.

6. Finally, Dany deciding that dragons don't plant (olive) trees is really her way of owning up to the fact that she is incapable of bringing and/or creating peace. She's embracing destruction and fire -- note that this goes back in a circular way to the Meereenese, who destroyed their own "peace" (the olive trees) with fire.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I can't believe I hadn't noticed this before, especially with our Food Code thread, but better late than never.

One of Meereen's biggest non-slave trades is in olives and olive products like oil. Before Dany sacked the city, the nobles burned the olive trees in a scorched-earth tactic.

When Xaro visits Dany -- a meeting that ends with him saying he should have killed her in Qarth and Qarth declaring war on Dany -- he tells her that he will take all of the olives and olive oil she's willing to sell. Dany says she has none to offer him and that they're trying to replant the trees but it will take years before they start to bear fruit and decades before they can be truly productive.

Harry Strickland tells Griff and Co. that Dany seems more intent on planting olive trees than in reclaiming the throne. Dany and her olives end up being sort of a running joke in the exchange.

When Dany eats breakfast on the day she marries Hizdahr, she's nibbling on an olive that Missandei has brought her while she makes the final deliberation to go ahead with the marriage.

When Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea, she thinks that dragons plant no trees; the only trees she's been planting lately are olive trees.

Traditionally, in our own world, olive trees represent peace and diplomacy. Extending the olive branch and whatnot.

1. The Meereenese destroying the olive trees demonstrates that the opportunity for any peace here has been destroyed.

2. Xaro's offer to buy olive products symbolically indicative of his willingness to negotiate and work with Dany and Dany's subsequent inability to sell them to him because they're unavailable demonstrate the end of peace between Dany and Qarth.

3. Likewise, the note about the olive trees taking decades to become productive shows that peace in Meereen will not happen overnight, but will take a very, very long time, if it happens at all.

4. The Golden Company's take that Dany would rather plant olive trees than win back the Iron Throne demonstrates that at this moment, her head is in Meereen trying to make some sort of peace.

5. Dany marries Hizdahr to secure peace in the city. Note that she's nibbling the olive, the peace symbol, right before she decides to go through with it after all.

6. Finally, Dany deciding that dragons don't plant (olive) trees is really her way of owning up to the fact that she is incapable of bringing and/or creating peace. She's embracing destruction and fire -- note that this goes back in a circular way to the Meereenese, who destroyed their own "peace" (the olive trees) with fire.

All apparently true but not realy foreshadowing is it? And the olives don't help the reader reach any of statements you made. It does add to the richness of the text though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

All apparently true but not realy foreshadowing is it? And the olives don't help the reader reach any of statements you made. It does add to the richness of the text though.

The "plant no trees" thing can be taken as foreshadowing. Recognizing the olive motif means that if they pop up again later, you can see what happens and how characters respond to them as evidence of their mindset or motives. I'd say it also foreshadows that there will be no peace in Meereen. The entire thing is a fool's errand and doomed to fail.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I can't believe I hadn't noticed this before, especially with our Food Code thread, but better late than never.

One of Meereen's biggest non-slave trades is in olives and olive products like oil. Before Dany sacked the city, the nobles burned the olive trees in a scorched-earth tactic.

When Xaro visits Dany -- a meeting that ends with him saying he should have killed her in Qarth and Qarth declaring war on Dany -- he tells her that he will take all of the olives and olive oil she's willing to sell. Dany says she has none to offer him and that they're trying to replant the trees but it will take years before they start to bear fruit and decades before they can be truly productive.

Harry Strickland tells Griff and Co. that Dany seems more intent on planting olive trees than in reclaiming the throne. Dany and her olives end up being sort of a running joke in the exchange.

When Dany eats breakfast on the day she marries Hizdahr, she's nibbling on an olive that Missandei has brought her while she makes the final deliberation to go ahead with the marriage.

When Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea, she thinks that dragons plant no trees; the only trees she's been planting lately are olive trees.

Traditionally, in our own world, olive trees represent peace and diplomacy. Extending the olive branch and whatnot.

1. The Meereenese destroying the olive trees demonstrates that the opportunity for any peace here has been destroyed.

2. Xaro's offer to buy olive products — symbolically indicative of his willingness to negotiate and work with Dany — and Dany's subsequent inability to sell them to him because they're unavailable demonstrate the end of peace between Dany and Qarth.

3. Likewise, the note about the olive trees taking decades to become productive shows that peace in Meereen will not happen overnight, but will take a very, very long time, if it happens at all.

4. The Golden Company's take that Dany would rather plant olive trees than win back the Iron Throne demonstrates that at this moment, her head is in Meereen trying to make some sort of peace.

5. Dany marries Hizdahr to secure peace in the city. Note that she's nibbling the olive, the peace symbol, right before she decides to go through with it after all.

6. Finally, Dany deciding that dragons don't plant (olive) trees is really her way of owning up to the fact that she is incapable of bringing and/or creating peace. She's embracing destruction and fire -- note that this goes back in a circular way to the Meereenese, who destroyed their own "peace" (the olive trees) with fire.

Nice catch seems Martin gets some things from Greek culture, Greek god of peace, Irena, always has an olive branch in her hand.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Nice catch seems Martin gets some things from Greek culture, Greek god of peace, Irena, always has an olive branch in her hand.

There's a lot of Greek-type stuff in the story. He uses the pomegranate in the same broad way too.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

There's a lot of Greek-type stuff in the story. He uses the pomegranate in the same broad way too.

Thats true I just realized. Is it the Demeter and Persephone story?

[Arya'sSanctuary]

This has probably been mentioned and is a done deal anyway, but I just started a reread, and in GoT, catelyn POV “Sometimes she felt as though her HEART had turned to STONE; six brave men had died to bring her this far, and she could not even find it in her to weep for them. Even their names were fading.” Gave me shivers in hindsight! :blink:

[Lord Puff Fish]

Not sure if it was foreshadowing, but during aCoK, Theon remembers that the Bloody Keep was named after sons of the River King were murdered and sent back in bits to their father. My immediate thoughts were foreshadowing to when Asha is sent some of Theon's skin by Ramsay.

[Valandui]

I can't believe I hadn't noticed this before, especially with our Food Code thread, but better late than never.

One of Meereen's biggest non-slave trades is in olives and olive products like oil. Before Dany sacked the city, the nobles burned the olive trees in a scorched-earth tactic.

When Xaro visits Dany -- a meeting that ends with him saying he should have killed her in Qarth and Qarth declaring war on Dany -- he tells her that he will take all of the olives and olive oil she's willing to sell. Dany says she has none to offer him and that they're trying to replant the trees but it will take years before they start to bear fruit and decades before they can be truly productive.

Harry Strickland tells Griff and Co. that Dany seems more intent on planting olive trees than in reclaiming the throne. Dany and her olives end up being sort of a running joke in the exchange.

When Dany eats breakfast on the day she marries Hizdahr, she's nibbling on an olive that Missandei has brought her while she makes the final deliberation to go ahead with the marriage.

When Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea, she thinks that dragons plant no trees; the only trees she's been planting lately are olive trees.

Traditionally, in our own world, olive trees represent peace and diplomacy. Extending the olive branch and whatnot.

1. The Meereenese destroying the olive trees demonstrates that the opportunity for any peace here has been destroyed.

2. Xaro's offer to buy olive products symbolically indicative of his willingness to negotiate and work with Dany and Dany's subsequent inability to sell them to him because they're unavailable demonstrate the end of peace between Dany and Qarth.

3. Likewise, the note about the olive trees taking decades to become productive shows that peace in Meereen will not happen overnight, but will take a very, very long time, if it happens at all.

4. The Golden Company's take that Dany would rather plant olive trees than win back the Iron Throne demonstrates that at this moment, her head is in Meereen trying to make some sort of peace.

5. Dany marries Hizdahr to secure peace in the city. Note that she's nibbling the olive, the peace symbol, right before she decides to go through with it after all.

6. Finally, Dany deciding that dragons don't plant (olive) trees is really her way of owning up to the fact that she is incapable of bringing and/or creating peace. She's embracing destruction and fire -- note that this goes back in a circular way to the Meereenese, who destroyed their own "peace" (the olive trees) with fire.

It kind of makes you think about that Dornish house who's sigil is a dragon eating it's own tail.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thats true I just realized. Is it the Demeter and Persephone story?

Yeah. He uses it with Littlefinger and Sansa and with Jon and Bowen (the Old Pomegranate).