Moments of Foreshadowing 5

[chrisdaw]

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy. A single slash across his throat was all it took to end it. So easy, he remembered thinking. A king should die harder than this.

Jon won't die easily, Stannis likely will not either.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Jon won't die easily, Stannis likely will not either.

Nice catch! Though Aerys was a real King, that cannot be denied. Perhaps it meana that, even though he was a King by law, he wasn't very kingly? And both Jon and Stannis, though no king by law, are very kingly and will thus not die easily?

[Fire Eater]

Death by dagger seems more likely than the other touted Sansa/Littlefinger murder weapon theory I've seen (another stone from the hairnet), since I can see Sansa killing Littlefinger in a blind rage, much as she once wanted to kill Joffrey in a blind rage in AGOT. I can't see her carrying out a premeditated murder plan with poison; it doesn't seem like Sansa's style.

Especially with LF talking to Sansa about betrayal and playing the game of thrones in ASoS, he uses the image of daggers often.

I found another clue pointing to Aegon as fake.

The prince [Daemon II] had washed the black dye from his hair as well, so it flowed down his collar in a cascade of silver and gold

In TMK, Daemon II Blackfyre dyed his hair to hide its silver-gold color like Aegon does.

The dragon egg meant to be for Daemon is stolen by a dwarf. This foreshadows Tyrion stealing Dany from Aegon, who was intended for Aegon.

[Newstar]

As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned's dagger from it's sheath and shoved it up under his chin. I would also like to add that the dagger of Valyrian steel with the dragonbone hilt was used by LF to frame Tyrion, Sansa's husband, for the assassination attempt on Bran, and betray Ned and Cat. I think when LF visits Sansa in her bed one night, she might pull the Valyrian dagger from LF's belt and stab him with it.

Especially with LF talking to Sansa about betrayal and playing the game of thrones in ASoS, he uses the image of daggers often.

Sansa's weapon of choice in ACOK when going to meet her unknown benefactor, who turns out to be Littlefinger's catspaw, is the knife she uses to cut her meat, although she intends to use it on herself rather than allow herself to be harmed by them. Poison might be a woman's weapon, but maybe a dagger is Sansa's.

This bit with LF and Sansa does seem somewhat more significant in light of that, now that you mention it:

“Tell me, Alayne - which is more dangerous, the dagger brandished by an enemy, or the hidden one pressed to your back by someone you never even see?”

“The hidden dagger.”

“There’s a clever girl.”

(It would be pretty funny if LF says "Clever girl" right before Sansa kills him, a la Jurassic Park. :D)

Come to think of it, daggers and knives seem to be somewhat more prominent in Sansa's arc than one might expect: Littlefinger's talk of the hidden dagger in ASOS, Sansa hiding the knife on her person in ACOK, Sansa's nightmare of being stabbed in the belly over and over again (and grabbing a knife to hack out the stain), the Hound threatening her with a knife the night of Blackwater, Tyrion and Sansa talking about the dagger and Joffrey earning himself a dagger, Tyrion slamming his dagger into the table to stop the bedding, Littlefinger cutting fruit with his dagger and sharing it with Sansa, etc. etc.

[coil]

Sansa's weapon of choice in ACOK when going to meet her unknown benefactor, who turns out to be Littlefinger's catspaw, is the knife she uses to cut her meat, although she intends to use it on herself rather than allow herself to be harmed by them. Poison might be a woman's weapon, but maybe a dagger is Sansa's.

This bit with LF and Sansa does seem somewhat more significant in light of that, now that you mention it:

“Tell me, Alayne - which is more dangerous, the dagger brandished by an enemy, or the hidden one pressed to your back by someone you never even see?”

“The hidden dagger.”

“There’s a clever girl.”

(It would be pretty funny if LF says "Clever girl" right before Sansa kills him, a la Jurassic Park. :D)

Come to think of it, daggers and knives seem to be somewhat more prominent in Sansa's arc than one might expect: Littlefinger's talk of the hidden dagger in ASOS, Sansa hiding the knife on her person in ACOK, Sansa's nightmare of being stabbed in the belly over and over again (and grabbing a knife to hack out the stain), the Hound threatening her with a knife the night of Blackwater, Tyrion and Sansa talking about the dagger and Joffrey earning himself a dagger, Tyrion slamming his dagger into the table to stop the bedding, Littlefinger cutting fruit with his dagger and sharing it with Sansa, etc. etc.

Last but not least, LF sneaking up behind Ned with a dagger!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm rereading The Mystery Knight and the dragon-hatching imagery around Whitewalls seems pretty compelling.

Daemon II Blackfyre has a dream of a dragon hatching at Whitewalls. He thinks it's going to be a real dragon -- he's hinging his conquest on it, that when this dragon egg hatches he'll have the power to be king -- but it's not a real dragon, it's Egg, coming of age.

Whitewalls is obviously so-named because it's, uh, white. There's also this nifty line: "It almost looks as if it's made of snow."

A metaphorical dragon hatching amongst snow-white walls, and Aemon has already compared Jon to Aegon in the main series. Not only do I take this as strong foreshadowing of what will become of Jon at the Wall, I also think it's a warning of sorts against taking any dragon-hatching prophecies too literally, both within the story itself and outside the story where readers are concerned.

ETA: Oh, and speaking of TMK, some of the lords are leery of Daemon II because he's not in possession of Blackfyre. Which makes me think fake Aegon will be.

[Fire Eater]

I'm rereading The Mystery Knight and the dragon-hatching imagery around Whitewalls seems pretty compelling.

Daemon II Blackfyre has a dream of a dragon hatching at Whitewalls. He thinks it's going to be a real dragon -- he's hinging his conquest on it, that when this dragon egg hatches he'll have the power to be king -- but it's not a real dragon, it's Egg, coming of age.

Whitewalls is obviously so-named because it's, uh, white. There's also this nifty line: "It almost looks as if it's made of snow."

A metaphorical dragon hatching amongst snow-white walls, and Aemon has already compared Jon to Aegon in the main series. Not only do I take this as strong foreshadowing of what will become of Jon at the Wall, I also think it's a warning of sorts against taking any dragon-hatching prophecies too literally, both within the story itself and outside the story where readers are concerned.

Excellent catch Apple

To that I'll add little and less

Wake dragons from stone

Still as stone[syrio] or The Wall could look like stone

Alia of the knife posits that this is a reference to Dune with "Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken"

"The sleeper must awaken" means a truth realized as well as someone having changed. Jon is in a coma after the Ides of Marsh, and waking the dragon from stone could mean Jon uncovering the truth of his heritage, that he is a Targaryen, while he is comatose or still as stone.After he wakes up from his coma he will no longer be Jon Snow or Lord Snow, but Jon Targaryen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Keeping up with the TMK stuff ....

Dunk thinks of Daemon II dreaming of "dragons hatching from stone eggs."

Again, this is a "dragons hatching from stone" moment where the dragon is metaphorical.

[Fire Eater]

Sansa's merlin brought down three ducks while Margaery's peregrine took a heron in full flight

Two of the herons raised their heads as the Shy Maid drifted away from the bank

[Heron] Tasted like duck, but not so greasy

Margaery has three royal husbands, the three ducks brought down symbolizes the deaths of all three of Margaery's husbands. Aegon has Duck, and Queen Selyse's entourage is referred to as ducklings. The heron symbolizes Sansa's husband, Tyrion, who isn't a king but was Hand of the king to Joffrey, and later to Dany, the closest thing to a king. Tyrion will not survive the series.

[Arya kiddin']

Tyrion will not survive the series.

Joy. Fire Eater why don't you re-read and deduce something similar for Jaime? :laugh:

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Sansa's merlin brought down three ducks while Margaery's peregrine took a heron in full flight

Two of the herons raised their heads as the Shy Maid drifted away from the bank

[Heron] Tasted like duck, but not so greasy

Margaery has three royal husbands, the three ducks brought down symbolizes the deaths of all three of Margaery's husbands. Aegon has Duck, and Queen Selyse's entourage is referred to as ducklings. The heron symbolizes Sansa's husband, Tyrion, who isn't a king but was Hand of the king to Joffrey, and later to Dany, the closest thing to a king. Tyrion will not survive the series.

So we know Sansa's role in killing Joffrey, (I can't think of anything she contributed to Renly's death), however, is that also an implication that she'll have a part to play in Tommen's death as well?

Tommen just seems too innocent. The only way I can see him dying is either Aegon striking him down (to set him up as an antagonist), or by Cersei killing him thinking that the throne is lost.

Also the "in full flight", makes me wonder if Tyrion will die on the back of a dragon (that would be an epic way to go).

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm rereading The Mystery Knight and the dragon-hatching imagery around Whitewalls seems pretty compelling.

Daemon II Blackfyre has a dream of a dragon hatching at Whitewalls. He thinks it's going to be a real dragon -- he's hinging his conquest on it, that when this dragon egg hatches he'll have the power to be king -- but it's not a real dragon, it's Egg, coming of age.

Whitewalls is obviously so-named because it's, uh, white. There's also this nifty line: "It almost looks as if it's made of snow."

A metaphorical dragon hatching amongst snow-white walls, and Aemon has already compared Jon to Aegon in the main series. Not only do I take this as strong foreshadowing of what will become of Jon at the Wall, I also think it's a warning of sorts against taking any dragon-hatching prophecies too literally, both within the story itself and outside the story where readers are concerned.

ETA: Oh, and speaking of TMK, some of the lords are leery of Daemon II because he's not in possession of Blackfyre. Which makes me think fake Aegon will be.

It is known.

[cocoalover1956]

"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."

I think as well as being a warning to Arya that Starks have stick together (which didn't happen at all), it could also foreshadowing that Westeros itself might not survive. Winter is almost here and look at the state of things: Cersei's trial and Margaery's arrest tearing up the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. Manderly's fighting the Boltons and the North is spilt between them. Vic and Aeron plotting against Euron. What might happen in the Vale if LF's plans for Sansa don't go according to plan. The mutiny at the Night's Watch and the aftermath. The whole continent is so busy busy fighting among themselves there's almost no way they can pull back together in time to defend themselves against the WW.

[Heyo Winter Comin']

Jon won't die easily, Stannis likely will not either.

Then again Joffrey died from poison, Balon from falling off a bridge, probably pushed by a faceless man, Robb was killed at dinner by treachery, Renly was killed by a shadowbaby, Viserys was killed with molten gold. Maybe it's more of an indicator that literally every king in the series so far hasn't died harder than this, and that they tend to have rather ignominious ends.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then again Joffrey died from poison, Balon from falling off a bridge, probably pushed by a faceless man, Robb was killed at dinner by treachery, Renly was killed by a shadowbaby, Viserys was killed with molten gold. Maybe it's more of an indicator that literally every king in the series so far hasn't died harder than this, and that they tend to have rather ignominious ends.

Or that there's a difference between someone calling himself a king and an "actual" king.

[Newstar]

Then again Joffrey died from poison, Balon from falling off a bridge, probably pushed by a faceless man, Robb was killed at dinner by treachery, Renly was killed by a shadowbaby, Viserys was killed with molten gold. Maybe it's more of an indicator that literally every king in the series so far hasn't died harder than this, and that they tend to have rather ignominious ends.

Heh. Kings tend to have pretty colourful deaths in this series. Bodes well for Stannis' death: if (when?) he goes, it's going to be equally spectacular.

Margaery has three royal husbands, the three ducks brought down symbolizes the deaths of all three of Margaery's husbands. Aegon has Duck, and Queen Selyse's entourage is referred to as ducklings. The heron symbolizes Sansa's husband, Tyrion, who isn't a king but was Hand of the king to Joffrey, and later to Dany, the closest thing to a king. Tyrion will not survive the series.

Except you've got it backwards. Margaery's bird took the heron, not Sansa's, and Sansa's bird took the three ducks. For the symbolism to work, it would have to be the other way around. Besides, Sansa's innocent of Renly's death, and Margaery will have had nothing to do with Tyrion's (since it seems unlikely she'll survive him), so your metaphor rather falls apart there. Not that you need this rather farfetched, reaching bit of speculation to work to support the conclusion that Tyrion's not going to survive the series. There's far lower-hanging foreshadowing fruit for that theory. :D

[Fire Eater]

Except you've got it backwards. Margaery's bird took the heron, not Sansa's, and Sansa's bird took the three ducks. For the symbolism to work, it would have to be the other way around. Besides, Sansa's innocent of Renly's death, and Margaery will have had nothing to do with Tyrion's (since it seems unlikely she'll survive him), so your metaphor rather falls apart there. Not that you need this rather farfetched, reaching bit of speculation to work to support the conclusion that Tyrion's not going to survive the series. There's far lower-hanging foreshadowing fruit for that theory. :D

I knoe Sansa's takes down the three ducks and Margaery takes down the peregrine as I stated in my post, and I never stated anywhre that Sansa had anything to do with the deaths of any of Margaery's husbands. Given GRRM's tendency to invert when it comes to foreshadowing like with Battle of Long Lake. I also I find your tone to be a bit condescending, no offense.

[Newstar]

I knoe Sansa's takes down the three ducks and Margaery takes down the peregrine as I stated in my post, and I never stated anywhre that Sansa had anything to do with the deaths of any of Margaery's husbands. Given GRRM's tendency to invert when it comes to foreshadowing like with Battle of Long Lake. I also I find your tone to be a bit condescending, no offense.

Well, given what a stretch it was, I first wondered if you'd actually confused the passage, since the opposite reading (Margaery's bird took the three ducks) would actually support your theory, whereas as is, it makes no sense whatsoever.

As for your linked post, what you claim is "GRRM's tendency to invert" is based on your assumptions about future events in the North being an inversion of the Battle of Long Lake, as follows:

In the Battle of Long Lake, Raymun Redbeard was headed south away from the Wall, and met with the Stark force marching north towards them. Lord William Stark was slain and decapitated, and William's brother, Artos, slew Raymun Redbeard in battle. The wildling army is crushed when they are taken in the rear by Lord Harmond Umber, the Drunken Giant, and Redbeard and all his sons are killed, and his line extinguished. Raymund's brother, the Red Raven, was the first to flee the battle.

"The Magnar's a lord on Skagos," Noye said. "There were Skagossans at Eastwatch when I first came to the Wall, I remember talk of him."

This is foreshadowing when it is inverted with the wildling force coming south fighting on the Stark side, and the force coming from WF being the Boltons. The giants on their mammoths from Eatswatch-by-the-Sea could take the Boltons in the rear, led by Wun Wun who had taken a liking to wine according to Jon, along with Davos with the Skagosi supporting Rickon who landed at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea where the giants are staying.

Robb Stark, who had a red beard, was slain by Roose Bolton, and decapitated. Jon, Robb's brother (cousin actually), kills Roose in battle, and avenges Robb like Artos Stark. Ramsay is also killed in battle by Jon, and House Bolton is extinguished.

This is an unrelated prediction which hasn't come to fruition yet. This prediction can only provide support in any sense for your claim that GRRM has a "tendency to invert" with foreshadowing if it turns out that you're right about the Battle of Long Lake's result being inverted, Roose and Ramsay dying as you predict, but you don't know that.

So your argument that the duck/heron switch for Margaery/Sansa is foreshadowing only has as evidence future events you're speculating on which haven't yet occurred. Again, seems like a big stretch to me, and very farfetched.

It would be one thing if this "inversion" had actually happened and events have played out as you predicted with respect to the Battle of Long Lake and Roose and Ramsay's deaths, since that would lend credence to your "inversion" claim (even though the duck/heron/Tyrion connection is still quite shaky), but they haven't yet. It's one thing to predict you're going to fail your algebra final if you've failed all your algebra tests leading up to it; it doesn't mean that you will fail it, but it lends weight to the prediction that you will. It's another matter entirely to predict you're going to fail your algebra final because you're predicting you'll fail your algebra tests leading up to it, even if you haven't taken any yet; there's no weight we can attach to that prediction. Y can't be any kind of support for a prediction for X unless Y actually happens.

Of course, it so happens that I agree with you that Tyrion won't survive the series. It just so happens that foreshadowing-wise, there are far easier, more reasonable, and more straightforward ways to get there than this heron/duck business.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Well this isn't really foreshadowing persay its just a gut feeling I have

Arya will be decapitated somewhere in the story

Reason- simply put Jon had 3 people from his old life he was extremely close to

Ned- Jon's father/father figure and was beheaded in KL

Robb- Jon's best friend and brother and was posthumously beheaded

Arya- Very close brother sister relationship(not Jaime/Cersei close but ,you know) and last person from Jon's old life that he was close to who is still alive. Her death would change Jon dramatically especially if it happens in such a Brutal way

[Fire Eater]

Well, given what a stretch it was, I first wondered if you'd actually confused the passage, since the opposite reading (Margaery's bird took the three ducks) would actually support your theory, whereas as is, it makes no sense whatsoever.

The theory does make sense if inverted, as what else could the three ducks point to? In that case I challenge you to provide an alternative to the foreshadowing. tze posted such a theory about inverted foreshadowing for Victarion killing Barristan:

[quote“It’s like Baelor Breakspear and Prince Maekar, the hammer and the anvil. We have them! We have them!”]

Given that Maekar ended up eventually killing Baelor Breakspear, this comparison might not presage positive future relations between Barristan and Victarion.