Moments of Foreshadowing 5

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon will not be king:

"I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children," the recruits promised, in voices that echoed back through years and centuries. "I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post."

Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done and the courage to do it.

--Jon VII, Dance

I'm not entirely sure it says what you think it does.

And this is of course ignoring the mountain of other foreshadowing bits about Jon being a king of some kind.

[Arya Targaryen]

Jon will not be king:

"I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children," the recruits promised, in voices that echoed back through years and centuries. "I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post."

Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done and the courage to do it.

--Jon VII, Dance

The bolded part can actually be interpreted as a foreshadowing of Jon becoming king. He clearly doesn't want to break his vows, never wanted to be king, and will try to avoid it even if it is offered, exactly because he said the words. But will he have the wisdom to realise that his personal honor is not as important as protecting the realm and the best way is to take the throne (of the North or the IT)? And even if he realises it must be done, he still need plenty of courage to do so, knowing that he will be called oathbreaker and stuff.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I see what y'all are saying. Good points.

[Man of Many Faces]

From Jon in ACoK when they arrive at Crasters Keep:

"On the southwest, he found an open gate flanked by a pair of animal skulls on high poles: a bear to one side, a ram to the other. BIts od flesh still clung to the bear skull, Jon noted as he joined the line riding past"

This is foreshadowing for Lord Commander Mormont "The Old Bear" being killed in Crasters Keep.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Under the assumption that tPtwP/AAR/TLH is the same 'saviour' that turns up together with the reappearance of the Others, you'd better hope that he's not part of the actual Night's Watch! Because from the moment a brother turns out to be The One, you need to stab him for betraying his vows: I shall win no glory.

:rolleyes:

Excellent thinking there, changer of the vows. I guess the hero will be forced to sit that one out, or else Caesar. Sorry, people. You're dead. :dunno:

[Lost Melnibonean]

From Jon in ACoK when they arrive at Crasters Keep:

This is foreshadowing for Lord Commander Mormont "The Old Bear" being killed in Crasters Keep.

Or that we'll see him again with bright blue eyes. Was his body burmed?

[Man of Many Faces]

I don't think his body was burned, but it's been a while since I read that chapter. I don't recall if they burn the keep or not.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I think I've put these in here once already, but I'm going for it again. :lol:

AGoT, final Jon:

“If truth be told, we expected you to do just as you did.” Mormont tried a plum, spit out the pit. “I ordered a watch kept over you., You were seen leaving. If your brothers had not fetched you back, you would have been taken along the way, and not by friends. Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?”

“No.” Jon felt like a fool.

“Pity, we could use a horse like that.”

**

“Your brother is in the field with all the power of the north behind him. Any one of his lords bannermen commands more swords than you’ll find in all the Night’s Watch. Why do you imagine that they need your help? Are you such a mighty warrior, or do you carry a grumkin in your pocket to magic up your sword?”

--

Mormont talks about Jon having a horse with wings (= dragon) and a magic sword.

Grumkins, as the Wiki tells us:

Grumkins are a race of mythical creatures which appear in Westerosi folktales. They are associated with granting wishes, either by crafting magical objects which make wishes come true^[1], or by directly giving people a number of wishes, of which the third wish is the last and must be used carefully^[2]. Grumkins are implied to be of short stature^[3] or otherwise of very small size^[4] and may also steal and replace children^[5].

Adults no longer believe in grumkins, and consider them imaginary beings^[6], comparable to legendary animals and supernatural entities^[7] or the monsters which children's nurses warn them against^[3]. As a result, several attempts to seek aid against the danger of the Others are met with mockery which ridicules the messenger as also fearing "snarks and grumkins^[8][9]", which the speaker implies are similarly non-existent.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Grumkin

Kind of sounds like the CotF here and there, and it also mentioned seeking aid against the Others, which supposedly the CotF helped with (did one version of the story not say that The Last Hero was given a magic sword by the CotF? Or that TLH arrived at the location of the CotF with a broken sword?)

Anyway, if not, it at least is odd that those are pretty close together in a Jon chapter while we're speculating he's TLH/AAR/tPtwP and might get a dragon.

For Fire Eater: I know you're a big fan of Drogon being Jon's future dragon, so I guess you can add the first quote to your list for this? Dark wings. ;)

[Fire Eater]

snip

To that I'll add:

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him [Drogon], smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands.

Once a man had said the words his blood was black.

In the cold night air the [Jon's] wound was smoking.

[Euranus]

I was under the impression that a dragon only has one rider (perhaps until that rider dies, not sure) and seeing as how Daenerys is already riding Drogon, that would be probably leave one of the other two for Jon, if he indeed is going to ride a dragon. I could be mistaken, as I don't remember exactly where I read that.

The horse with wings bit reminds me of Bittersteel's personal arms, though I'm sure that's just a random association and doesn't mean anything.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I don't think that many people are targeting Drogon as - if he'll get one - Jon's dragon. I myself am hooked on Viserion. (Jon's colours won't be black like tv Jon said, he already has a white direwolf, and Viserion, while creamy, is also called the white dragon; also there's a theory that Bloodraven is warging Viserion already, and I think Viserion is more docile and fits Jon more than a more dangerous Rhaegal, whom I'm not expecting to be around when the WotD 2.0 is here.)

Plus, I don't know why, but whenever I think of Jon on Drogon I picture Snape on a broom. :lol: I'd like him to ride the white one for better colouring than a black blob. :D They'll catch up to Drogon's size, those two others, so size won't matter much. But we'll, as always, see. ;)

I think when I previously quoted those sentences I was given the same reply as the Bittersteel thing as well, but that doesn't really make much sense in the context here. Not every wolf is a Stark, not every bear a Mormont,...

[King O' Winter]

I'm not sure if anyone cited this passage, if so just ignore this post. I've been doing my first re-read of the series and found some really cool imagery.

GOT pg 212-213

Tyrion III

"Rickon can't read yet. Bran..." He stopped suddenly. " I don't know what message to send to bran. Help him, Tyrion."

"What help could I give him? I am no maester, to ease his pain. I have no spells to give him back his legs."

"You gave me help when I needed it," Jon Snow said.

"I gave you nothing," Tyrion said. "Words."

"Then give your words to Bran too."

"You're asking a lame man to teach a cripple how to dance," Tyrion said. "However sincere the lesson, the result is likely to be grotesque. Still I know what it is to love a brother, Lord Snow. I will give Bran whatever small help is in power."

"Thank you, my Lord of Lannister." He pulled off his glove and offered his bare hand. "Friend."

Tyrion found himself oddly touched . "Most of my kin are bastards," he said with a wry smile, "but you're the first I've had to friend." He pulled a glove off with his teeth and clasped Snow by the hand, flesh against flesh. The boy's grip was firm and strong.

When he had donned his glove again, Jon Snow turned abruptly and walked to the low, icy northern parapet. Beyond him the wall fell away sharply; beyond him there was only darkness and the wild. Tyrion followed him, and side by side they stood upon the edge of the world.

I feel like this is major foreshadowing for Tyrion to possibly be Lord of Casterly Rock or maybe on the IT, and Jon perhaps KITN or on the IT...either way for the both of them to be in positions of great power and ally together against a common foe....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was under the impression that a dragon only has one rider (perhaps until that rider dies, not sure) and seeing as how Daenerys is already riding Drogon, that would be probably leave one of the other two for Jon, if he indeed is going to ride a dragon. I could be mistaken, as I don't remember exactly where I read that.

The horse with wings bit reminds me of Bittersteel's personal arms, though I'm sure that's just a random association and doesn't mean anything.

You have it backwards. A rider can only ride one dragon.

[Euranus]

You have it backwards. A rider can only ride one dragon.

So I guess that still means Dany will be riding Drogon regardless. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Do you have a source, btw? Because I tried searching through the wiki earlier and couldn't find any information in regards to that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So I guess that still means Dany will be riding Drogon regardless. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Do you have a source, btw? Because I tried searching through the wiki earlier and couldn't find any information in regards to that.

From ADWD:

"... it is said that even Aegon the Conqueror never dared mount Vhagar or Meraxes, nor did his sisters ride Balerion the Black Dread. Dragons live longer than men, some for hundreds of years, so Balerion had other riders after Aegon died ... but no rider ever flew two dragons."

There's also info from the World of Ice and Fire that says that Maegor refused to ride any dragon until Balerion became available — that was the dragon he was holding out for, and if he bonded with any of the other dragons, he couldn't ever ride Balerion.

So yeah. Dragons can have multiple riders, but riders can't have multiple dragons.

[Euranus]

From ADWD:

There's also info from the World of Ice and Fire that says that Maegor refused to ride any dragon until Balerion became available — that was the dragon he was holding out for, and if he bonded with any of the other dragons, he couldn't ever ride Balerion.

So yeah. Dragons can have multiple riders, but riders can't have multiple dragons.

Thanks!

[Newstar]

Rescued from the "Jon can't dance" thread, where there was discussion of the potential symbolic foreshadowing value of Jon sitting out the dancing at Alys' wedding in ADWD.

From ADWD (with the names of the dancers bolded):

Between courses, Ser Axell Florent led Queen Selyse out onto the floor to dance. Others followed—the queen’s knights first, partnered with her ladies. Ser Brus gave Princess Shireen her first dance, then took a turn with her mother. Ser Narbert danced with each of Selyse’s lady companions in turn.

The queen’s men outnumbered the queen’s ladies three to one, so even the humblest serving girls were pressed into the dance. After a few songs some black brothers remembered skills learned at the courts and castles of their youth, before their sins had sent them to the Wall, and took the floor as well. That old rogue Ulmer of the Kingswood proved as adept at dancing as he was at archery, no doubt regaling his partners with his tales of the Kingswood Brotherhood, when he rode with Simon Toyne and Big Belly Ben and helped Wenda the White Fawn burn her mark in the buttocks of her highborn captives. Satin was all grace, dancing with three serving girls in turn but never presuming to approach a highborn lady. Jon judged that wise. He did not like the way some of the queen’s knights were looking at the steward, particularly Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain. That one wants to shed a bit of blood, he thought. He is looking for some provocation.

When Owen the Oaf began to dance with Patchface the fool, laughter echoed off the vaulted ceiling. The sight made Lady Alys smile. “Do you dance often, here at Castle Black?”

“Every time we have a wedding, my lady.”

“You could dance with me, you know. It would be only courteous. You danced with me anon.” “Anon?” teased Jon. “When we were children.” She tore off a bit of bread and threw it at him. “As you know well.”

“My lady should dance with her husband.” “My Magnar is not one for dancing, I fear. If you will not dance with me, at least pour me some of the mulled wine.” “As you command.” He signaled for a flagon.

It is interesting that Jon doesn't dance, even as there's a rather lengthy passage devoted to pretty much everyone else dancing: Alys later drags Sigorn onto the dance floor. However, he doesn't give any consideration to dancing, or any reason (either speaking or in his internal POV) as to why he refuses; he just doesn't. He gets out of dancing with Alys by saying she should dance with her husband--reasonable enough--but there's no indication that he even considers dancing.

If we're going to be very grim and depressing about predictions, maybe Jon sitting out the dance means that he'll live while the dancers will die? Ser Patrek is already dead, and I have to say I don't see much of a future for Shireen and Selyse. Maybe Alys dragging Sigorn on to the dance floor means that this marriage will be his doom. Sigorn seems thrilled with the marriage, and it seems to be a rule with GRRM that no one can be happy for any extended period of time.

The passage with Jon sitting out the dancing at the wedding reminded me of another passage in ASOS, where Tyrion sits out the dancing at a wedding (his own, so obviously different there). Look at the passage, and the dancers who are described (names bolded):

When the musicians began to play, she timidly laid her hand on Tyrion’s and said, “My lord, should we lead the dance?” His mouth twisted. “I think we have already given them sufficent amusement for one day, don’t you?” “As you say, my lord.” She pulled her hand back.

Joffrey and Margaery led in their place. How can a monster dance so beautifully? Sansa wondered. She had often daydreamed of how she would dance at her wedding, with every eye upon her and her handsome lord. in her dreams they had all been smiling. Not even my husband is smiling. Other guests soon joined the king and his betrothed on the floor. Elinor danced with her young squire, and Megga with Prince Tommen. Lady Merryweather, the Myrish beauty with the black hair and the big dark eyes, spun so provocatively that every man in the hall was soon watching her. Lord and Lady Tyrell moved more sedately. Ser Kevan Lannister begged the honor of Lady Janna Fossoway, Lord Tyrell’s sister. Merry Crane took the floor with the exile prince Jalabhar Xho, gorgeous in his feathered finery. Cersei Lannister partnered first Lord Redwyne, then Lord Rowan, and finally her own father, who danced with smooth unsmiling grace.

Sansa sat with her hands in her lap, watching how the queen moved and laughed and tossed her blonde curls. She charms them all, she thought dully. How I hate her. She looked away, to where Moon Boy danced with Dontos.

“Lady Sansa.” Ser Garlan Tyrell stood beside the dais. “Would you honor me? If your lord consents?” The Imp’s mismatched eyes narrowed. “My lady can dance with whomever she pleases.” Perhaps she ought to have remained beside her husband, but she wanted to dance so badly... and Ser Garlan was brother to Margaery, to Willas, to her Knight of Flowers.

Lot of people who are dead--Kevan, Tywin, Joffrey, Dontos--or on a fast track to ending up that way (Cersei, Margaery, Tommen, Elinor, Megga, etc.) in that list. Maybe Tyrion sitting out the dance means that he'll survive while the rest of them are killed.

The scenes are parallel in another sense: Tyrion and Jon are asked to dance by a woman (Sansa and Alys, respectively), they decline (Tyrion says that they've given the masses enough amusement, Jon says Alys should dance with her husband), and Sansa and Alys both wind up dancing with other partners (Garlan and others as the dance progresses, Alys with her husband).

[Fire Eater]

"When you've found yourself in a bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is just close your eyes and get on with it," he declared. "Waiting won't make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it."

"Kiss her?" Ser Barristan repeated, aghast.

"A steel kiss," said Littlefinger.

So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?

Sansa will give him that kiss alright, after she finds him in her bed one night.

As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned's dagger from it's sheath and shoved it up under his chin.

I would also like to add that the dagger of Valyrian steel with the dragonbone hilt was used by LF to frame Tyrion, Sansa's husband, for the assassination attempt on Bran, and betray Ned and Cat. I think when LF visits Sansa in her bed one night, she might pull the Valyrian dagger from LF's belt and stab him with it.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned's dagger from it's sheath and shoved it up under his chin.

I would also like to add that the dagger of Valyrian steel with the dragonbone hilt was used by LF to frame Tyrion, Sansa's husband, for the assassination attempt on Bran, and betray Ned and Cat. I think when LF visits Sansa in her bed one night, she might pull the Valyrian dagger from LF's belt and stab him with it.

GO SANSA! CUT OFF HIS PEDO COCK!

[Newstar]

As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned's dagger from it's sheath and shoved it up under his chin.

I would also like to add that the dagger of Valyrian steel with the dragonbone hilt was used by LF to frame Tyrion, Sansa's husband, for the assassination attempt on Bran, and betray Ned and Cat. I think when LF visits Sansa in her bed one night, she might pull the Valyrian dagger from LF's belt and stab him with it.

Death by dagger seems more likely than the other touted Sansa/Littlefinger murder weapon theory I've seen (another stone from the hairnet), since I can see Sansa killing Littlefinger in a blind rage, much as she once wanted to kill Joffrey in a blind rage in AGOT. I can't see her carrying out a premeditated murder plan with poison; it doesn't seem like Sansa's style.